What to do with poor quality cabinets

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"Swingman" wrote

Are you talking about cabinets or the GOP primaries? ;-)
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On 3/6/2012 11:48 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:

You left out religion ... ;)
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Look, let's take this in context. Another poster, Clare, claimed that only if the cabinet company who made the cabinets installed them does the OP have recourse. In response to that I said that if the cabinets are defective, then the cabinets are defective regardless of who installed them. Meaning if they were defective before being installed, then the OP had a legitimate claim against the cabinet supplier. Now if they were installed by someone else, I agree that complicates the case.

No contradiction at all. I never said all the alleged defects were or were not the fault of who made them. Only that just because someone other than the company who made them installed them does not mean the OP has no recourse, which was what Clare stated.

"handles not at the same height"
nitpicking now are we?

He stated:
"poorly mortised hinges (sloppy and hinges are not flush with the wood), "
more nitpicking
And tell us how the above and warped kitchen cabinet doors are usually the result of installation. In my world, they are usually the result of how they were made.

It's not a could. To prevail in court it's a fact that you don't need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

So, why are you jumping all over me and nitpicking apart minor differences in words?

Only if the lawyer agrees to do that for free and you better determine that upfront.

And that of course is pure BS. There are plenty of people who get surprised by lawyers bills, just as they get surprised by mechanics or tradesmen. In the case of lawyers, it can be even worse because they frequently bill by the hour. Are you there to watch how long that phone call really took? Or if it was necessary? Or how long he spent reviewing the documents you gave him? Good grief. There are plenty of lawyers that pad bills, run the clock and there are some that are outright crooks.
I'll give you one recent small example. A friend had a closing on a house. He called up several lawyers and got quotes. The one he selected quoted $1100 for her services. Half way through the process in the course of a discussion, she said "My paralegal is drawing up that... BTW, you're paying extra for her time." Now that is a good example of how a lawyer can screw you. You'd expect to pay for title work, FedEx, etc. But the paralegal that is doing the work you already paid an attorney for? Totally unethical.
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No problem, sounds like we are on the same page.

The burden of proof to prevail is NOT beyond reasonable doubt for a civil case. It's by a preponderance of the evidence, ie tipping the scales in your favor, which is a much lower standard than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard of criminal court.

Yes, but the only likely way it would be discussed would be if the lawyer brings it up. Not many clients are going to think to ask if they are going to pay for paralegal work on a real estate closing seperately from the $1100 flat fee the lawyer is quoting. I've done many closing using a lawyer and I would not have thought to ask that. But I've also never had it happen to me. My friend let her get away with it without objecting. You probably would have said, WTF are you talking about? So would I.
Funny conclusion though. Might as well tell you more of the story. This closing was scheduled for a particular day and it didn't occur because Chase also screwed my friend by insisting at the last minute that he put up 30% down instead of 20%. He had a sales contract with the standard contingency that said he was to apply for a mortgage of X amount with 20% down. So he's scrambling to figure out how to come up with more money. And I'm telling him, you don't have to. You fulfilled your part of the contract and if you've been denied the mortgage that the contract spelled out, you can go look for another mortgage or you can call it quits. Remarkably, the lawyer now had him dealing with the paralegal and she is telling him a different story, that he has to go through with it, accept the different mortgage terms or he could lose his deposit. What pure BS.
Finally, with me feeding him questions and getting the lawyer on the phone they agreed with my position. And for this he was paying $1100? Like who's side is this stupid lawyer on?
So, it took a few more weeks, but he got another mortgage with a local bank with just the 20% down. And he closed on the house. Almost a year later he's asking me what my water bills are and why he owes the town over $1000 in water bills. So, we do some digging and find out what happened. About $700 of the bill was for the 3 week period between the 1st closing that was scheduled and the one that actually ocurred. The half-assed lawyer and her dopey paralegal had called the town for the water bill for the first closing. They never called again for the updated numbers for the actual closing. The folks that owned the house watered the hell out of the lawn every day and had a pool. So, they managed to use $700 worth of water in those few weeks.
It took months, but finally one day a check for $700 showed up from the lawyer. I suspect it came out of her own pocket because the sellers had moved out of state and I kind of doubt they sent her the money. At the very least it created a headache for her, which made me feel better.

Yes, I agree. The reason I brought up being careful with the lawyer fees upfront was the experience the OP already had in buying cabinets.
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I doubt a jury will decide in a small civil suit.
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The burden of proof to prevail is NOT beyond reasonable doubt for a civil case. It's by a preponderance of the evidence, ie tipping the scales in your favor, which is a much lower standard than the beyond a reasonable doubt standard of criminal court.
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glegroups.com...
It doesn't matter whether it's a jury or a judge. The standard of preponderance of the evidence applies in either case.
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On 3/5/2012 9:19 AM, Sam Takoy wrote:

Can't believe that cabinets alone were $25 k and it sounds like you must have put them in yourself since it was a three year period.
I can't comment on your specific case but had the experience of suing my home builder many years ago.
I sued him personally along with his corporation and it cost me a retainer with the lawyer and a professional inspectors report.
Lawyer advised me that we were unlikely to win against the builder himself but would probably win against the corporation but find it had no assets. So we settled out of court against the corporation but never got a penny as the corporation was broke. Developers are expert in hiding behind corporations and will often incorporate a single project to protect their others. Only money I got back was in the form of writing it off my taxes as a short term business loss or something.
I did get some satisfaction with the county withholding building permits until he corrected things that were out of code. I did not need a lawyer for this.
Besides getting no money there was the aggravation of going through this for nearly a year and a counter suit because my wife had chased away buyers of the house next door.
Someone else brought up the potential for a lien. My builder had built a house for a banker and was getting cash advances and showing him releases of liens. Turns out he was not paying his subcontractors and forging the release of liens. Don't know what the banker's lawyer worked out but he advised the banker that it was better to get the mess straightened out than to put the builder in jail.
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Sam Takoy wrote:

1. Lawyer.
2. Recognize that you may be a victim of the human compulsion to find or magnify flaws. Think of a woman just back from the hairdresser.
No one can tell from your description whether your cabinets are indistinguishable from something made of discarded moving pallets or a splendorific job whose imperfections are found only by a magnifying glass.
Perhaps pictures?
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You only made one mistakes, Always pay in 3rd's put in a Contract.. that way you only out a same of $833.33 not all..
First Check builder list for Materials. have him get the Materials to you home first, have him setup then pay first 3rd, remember the Materials came out of the first 3rd, so if the Materials $800, you own him $33.33 if he has the Materials himself Check builder list, made shore it's all there.. then you own him $833.33 That the first 1/3 to start the job
Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List at 1/2 done, if he a good builder he be over 1/2 done maybe up to a 1/3 done when he ask for payment #two That the Sec. 1/3 at 1/2 done..
On Completion Do a Walk Through Inspection Check List, and it have to be all Clean up then pay the last 3rd..
1/3 on completion..
Look a true builder and Contractor will do this, If the do not believe ask you Banker or Insurers Co. For that make us Contractor do it all the time,
That how they know that they are not made One Big mistakes...
Materials $800, you own him $33.33 here a red flag if Materials go pass the first 3rd, he under bided... And know how to Contractor a job....
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I can.......
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says...

Well remind me never to order cabinets from *you*.
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Kinda sounds like your Pella window....
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