Tankless water heaters -- inneresting take.

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On Sun, 03 Feb 2013 15:24:43 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I've bought refills for most all of the blades I've had over the years, even after market blades. Auto parts stores sell both in most brands.
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On 1/31/2013 9:05 AM, Existential Angst wrote:

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/tankless-water-heaters.html
Maybe spend a little more time pondering it (you know shit and stuff)
Its just a typical fluff piece designed to fill space. The writer immediately discredits themselves with a FUD declaration "Tankless water heaters have come and gone"
The originator Takagi has only been making tankless heaters for 60 years and still going stong. The other main player Rinnai has only been making tankless heaters since 1964 and is still going stong.
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Forgivable spin, imo. Not so forgivable is the tankless hype.

<yawn>..... whatever.....Talking thermodynamics to your dumbass is f'sure pointless.....
Tankless is hype. Any honest breakdown of the economics will show sig'ly higher cost-to-own for most people. Not that the technology/systems is so so bad -- still thermodynamically profligate, but in larger part, the "infrastructure" for plain ole water heaters is so large, that that in itself gives the trad'l a homefield advantage.
Hey, but I know this is over yer head, and it would be a, uh, tankless task explaining it to you. And I know I'm distracting you from preparing for your single-sleeping-bag BoiScout campout with JoeBoi.... have fun.....
--
EA




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many gas tankless are power vent, no electric no hot shower. our longest outage was over 3 days, luckily it was in the summer, still a hot shower was nice......
after cutting up downed trees all day:(
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Mason Dixon line.
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On 1/31/2013 4:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

They have a mode where the cycle on and run just long enough to prevent freezing. I think that would be asking for trouble.
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http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/tankless-water-heaters.html
Funny how tankless heaters have been around for more than 50 years in Europe and are the primary mode of providing hot water to households One has to wonder why something that has had 50+ years of daily usage in a large parts of the world would allegedly be so far back technically as the author claims.
There are TWO reasons why the tankless are still expensive to buy and install: 1) They are relatively new and unknown here, with not much demand for them yet 2) They are going against what has been the norm during the 50+ years. Change is slow I should also mention that there is resistance from the plumbing establishment, who are being challenged in their "control" zones.
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wrote:

A lot of the rest of the world has a lot of things going on in the economy that are not governed by free market economics, but instead by govt mandates, regulations, subsidies, etc. For one thing, the cost of energy is typically substantially higher in many places than it is here. People in those other parts of the world could just as easily point to the huge market for water heaters in the USA and how little of it is tankless as evidence that tank type is superior.
Most of what is pointed out in that link is true. Particularly that the total cost of installing a tankless, particularly if it's a retrofit, skew the economics so that it's unlikely you'll ever recover the higher initial cost here in the USA, where nat gas is still relatively modest cost.

Of course the fact that in a lot of retrofit cases you have to increase the line size all the way back to the gas meter, maybe replace the gas meter too, put in new venting, etc has nothing to do with it, right? Or the fact that if the power goes out, with a tank type, you still have hot water for 2 days?
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If everybody in any area of concentrated population had an electric tankless system, they'd blackout the local grid every morning. If they all had gas tankless, the CO2 would proly make everyone so sleepy they couldn't drive to work. Plus, in gas tankless, the thermodynamics is all wrong. Well, not scientifically wrong, just energetically immoral.....
--
EA


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What a total crock of ignorant shot
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Then you know nothing about power generation and the notion of "demand". Look it up. Why do you think there are blackouts/brownouts in big cities in 100 deg weather?
--
EA


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You're arguing against a stawman. Let's assume for a moment that everyone used tankless. Why would you ever assume that it's all going to be ELECTRIC? For the vast majority of the population, nat gas is available and cheaper and due to the energy reqts, a far better solution. It's like arguing that IF everyone used electric heat, there would be a problem.....
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You're arguing against a stawman. Let's assume for a moment that everyone used tankless. Why would you ever assume that it's all going to be ELECTRIC? For the vast majority of the population, nat gas is available and cheaper and due to the energy reqts, a far better solution. It's like arguing that IF everyone used electric heat, there would be a problem..... ==================================================== No, I was arguing against someone apparently unfamiliar with demand. And what makes you think demand applies only to electricity? Nat gas is not supplied at infinite cfm, just like electricity is not supplied with infinite amps. Which is not to say that the problem would be as severe, or mebbe more severe.... I don't think either of us are fluent in the fluid dynamics/transport of low-pressure gases.
And yeah, IF everyone were to use electric, there would be a problem. Ditto gas. The cfm cited somewhere in this thread for tankless gas, 160,000 btu iirc, is about 3x what my effing furnace draws, for a 5,000 sq ft hovel. So some jerkoff, in a 2 BR house, who wants 2 hour showers, is going to run 160,000 btu gas?? Absurd, when you think about it. It's like shooting yourself out of a sprung cannon to get up to the 12th floor, instead of climbing the steps or taking an elevator.
And, as I pointed out elsewhere, "on demand" has no bearing on "instantaneous", which, if I have virtually plumbed this correctly, is only possible with tanked hw and recirc pumps.
effingEurope is not nec the vanguard for common sense. Canada is.
--
EA




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Oh, unless you install a point-of-use tankless, right at the sink. But an electric tankless, even for a shitty little mini-sink in a guest bathroom, draws 4,500 W.... !!! AND just delivers luke-warm water!!!!! And much more difficult to install for, say, a shower.
Sheeeit, just let the water run a bit.
--
EA


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> effingEurope is not nec the vanguard for common sense. Canada is.
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Yah ! The place where a province nearly completely relying on electricity to even heat their houses, ended up freezing when the towers bringing in the power collapsed in an ice storm
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We've all heard about electric companies having issues with meeting demand on those very few days of the year, almost always in summer heat, when peak load is extreme. I've never heard of a gas utility having trouble meeting demand, of a "gas brownout".

So, in one sentence you claim that you are not fluent in the issue and in the next you again claim such a problem would exist. Which is it? And gas is distributed at higher pressure through the system.

My furnace is 120K btus. My old one was 150K btus. Also, the new one is two stage, so it frequently is firing at only about 80K. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has replaced an old inefficient furnace with a high efficiency one. No reason I see to believe that tankless water heaters are going to bring the gas system to it's knees. And if that was a real problem, I think by now you'd hear the gas companies discouraging customers from installing them.

Which of course has nothing to do with anything I said.

Has Europe or Asia, where tankless is a large installed base had problems meeting gas demand?
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We've all heard about electric companies having issues with meeting demand on those very few days of the year, almost always in summer heat, when peak load is extreme. I've never heard of a gas utility having trouble meeting demand, of a "gas brownout". =================================================== Dats cuz tankless gas is rare, and/or is used in low-populated areas. I was just mostly just illustrating the point of "demand", and ultimate viability as a mainstream choice.

So, in one sentence you claim that you are not fluent in the issue and in the next you again claim such a problem would exist. Which is it? And gas is distributed at higher pressure through the system. ============================================================ So is electricity, which doesn't seem to stop blackouts.
I unnerstand IR drop, and friction/pressure drop in water hoses. 'nuff said.

My furnace is 120K btus. My old one was 150K btus. Also, the new one is two stage, so it frequently is firing at only about 80K. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has replaced an old inefficient furnace with a high efficiency one. No reason I see to believe that tankless water heaters are going to bring the gas system to it's knees. And if that was a real problem, I think by now you'd hear the gas companies discouraging customers from installing them.

Which of course has nothing to do with anything I said. ================================================== Just reiterating an additional limitation of tankless.
Are we a little slow today??

Has Europe or Asia, where tankless is a large installed base had problems meeting gas demand? =================================================== How large is large? How dense is the population where it is installed?
--
EA



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Again you're claiming the current gas infrastructure could not meet the demand. That's after you said you know nothing about the subject. I find it rather odd that it this problem is real, you are the only one concerned about it. Like, why aren't the gas companies who actually run the system issuing warnings against going with tankless? In fact from what I've seen from both utilities and sources like DOE, they are positive towards tankless.

It's a funny thing. The population of the USA continues to grow by millions a year. Around here, they have put up houses, condos, all over the place. What used to be cow pastures and farm land is now covered with 3500 sq ft houses. Yet, over a quarter of a century, the lights haven't gone out. They haven't even browned out. And I also have not seen crews out constantly replacing the basic 3 wire utility poles running down the roads with huge new towers or similar. That suggest that the existing electrical system expanded gracefully to meet HUGE new demand. You have no evidence as to the capacity of any existing gas systems to suggest that if tankless gas is adopted the same thing won't happen. In fact, the existing gas system also obviously has expanded to accomodate all the new housing, businesses, etc that are using gas, without problems. Any such move to tankless is going to happen over time. We're not going to wake up one morning with everyone suddenly using nat gas tankless, hence you're raising a strawman.

It's *not* a distinction between tankless and tank type. No one here that I recall ever said that a tankless whole house heater gives anyone instant hot water.

Is say Tokyo dense enough, where tankless is used extensively? Actually whether it's dense, large or small doesn't matter. What matters is that the system for the customer base is adequate, can grow if needed, etc. And you told us already you know zippo about that. So, all you're doing is spreading FUD.
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On 2/2/2013 8:59 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

A tankless won't work for me during a power outage.
My natural gas service can NOT supply enough gas to run my 16kW Generac generator and a tankless water heater. The gas company can't upgrade the meter/regulator because of capacity issues in the neighborhood.
I'll stick with a 50 gallon tank.
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That's interesting. So, your neighborhood is so fully developed that no one can build a new house or business and use gas? No one can expand a home? Or perhaps a few homes switch from electric cooking to gas? Add a gas pool heater, which is as large or larger than a tankless in terms of gas demand? How about if your neighbor wants to add a nat gas generator, like you have? They can't?
Not saying there aren't cases where gas isn't available or supply could be an issue. Just I think if there isn't gas supply sufficient for a tankless addition to one house because of insufficient supply issues that effect the whole neighborhood that there would be a whole host of problems....
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