residential electrical question

Page 1 of 3  
I have a simplex 20 a electrical outlet that powers my washing machine. I would like to remove the simplex and add a two receptacle 20 a GFI so I may add my wifes &*$@&%$ electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1 14/2 romex is run inside the wall for the circuit. Is it safe to use the single black from the circuit and jumper the hot sides of the receptacle ?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
As long as you don't increase the breaker size, but it would be easier to just donate the cat to a Chinese restaurant.
electric catbox to the laundry room. Only 1

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hang on- are you talking about a 20 amp circuit? Is the breaker a 20A? Isn't 14/2 rated for 15A? Only an amateur here, but I'm hoping someone more knowledgable can clear this up. Better I make a fool of myself than you set up a potential house fire.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You are correct.. 14 is rated for 15 amps, and 12 is rated for 20 amps. If you have 14/2 wiring, the breaker feeding it must be 15 amps. If you are using #12 for that circuit (and it must be the entire circuit), you can use a 20 amp breaker.
As a rule, you can always use a breaker rated for less than the capacity of the smallest wire in the circuit, but you should never do the opposite.
You can use either a 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle on either a 15 or 20 amp circuit, except when using a single receptacle on a 20 amp circuit, in which case it must be a 20 amp receptacle. (I think in this case, 'single' refers to the number of locations, and a duplex receptacle would be be considered a 'single' receptacle.)
--
-- Welcome My Son, Welcome To The Machine --
Bob Vaughan | techie @ tantivy.net |
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bob Vaughan wrote:

Laundry circuits for a long time have be 20A. The Romex high probablilty is 12-2.
More than one receptacle on a circuit (including duplex): 15A ckt - 15A outlets (a 20A outlet could power a 20A device) 20A ckt - 15 or 20A outlets (a 15A duplex outlet can supply a total of 20A but 15A max for each outlet)
Single receptacle on a circuit: the outlet has to be rated higher amperage than the circuit - 15A circuit - 20A outlet, or 30A or 50A... This is a bizare provision which may make sense for odd receptacles like twist lock, but any competent person on a residential circuit would use: 15A circuit - 15A outlet 20A circuit - 20A outlet (15A not permitted)
bud--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Yes it's a 20 amp breaker. I'm pretty sure it's 14/2. It has a white jacket, I think 12/2 is a different color. A wash machine has been the only thing on the circuit for the last few years so I'm thinking its ok. I asked the question because when I installed the GFI recept. the GFI tripped. Not sure if you can jumper across the 2 hot sides of the recept. with the black wire, white on neutral etc.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
You should not jumper the two Hots on the GFI Recept. You wire up the GFI Recept differently then a normal Recept. The Hot is Already connected internally though the GFI Circuitry, as it the Neutral.
So if you just want to use the 2 Outlets that are on the GFI, just hook up the top outer screws on the GFI, You don't need to hook up the bottom set unless you are going to feed another outlet.
If you are going to feed another outlet, then you hook up the other outlets to the LOAD side (inner bottom) of the GFI.
the Different Color for 12/x romex is not that old. I still have lots of White 12/2. You would normally have 12/2 with a 20a breaker and 14/2 with a 15a breaker.
Scott<-

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
thats the ticket. Thanks ...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
waldowonka wrote:

On GFCIs that I've worked with (Leviaton, Cooper) one set of (2) brass (y'know black-brass-burn your -ss) and chrome (usually) screws are marked "Line". The other two are marked "Load" . Connect to the load to connect other outlets that you want protected. Sounds like you connected the in and out together. The GFCI won't like that. All washers and dryers in the laundry room should be grounded to a metallic cold water pipe. Use crimp screw connectors and #12 stranded green wire. Find the grounding points on the back of the appliances. As far as the grounded outlet is concerned, with the GFCI you'll be closer to code. The wire gauge would be written on the side of the cable and #14 is rated at 15 A. The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it. Richard
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HUH? Can you cite that rule?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I would like to see him reference grounding appliances to water pipes. Thats actually a violation isn't it?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
RE:"The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an outlet on it."
Whoa... So you mean all of the Lighting Circuit outlets I just put in the Garage for the Plug in Shop lights the Inspector is going to complain about?
I put in 3 outlets per circuit all branched from a Junction box..
hmmm...
Scott<-

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I'm IBEW. We've been using #14 for years for 15 A circuits. Lately we're seeing as noted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_(U.S.) "minimum 12AWG copper wire for 20 amp circuits minimum 14AWG wire, copper or 12 awg aluminum for 15 amp circuits (some local codes require a minimum of 12 gauge for 15 amp circuits, except for switch legs - that is, circuit portions that are strictly between a light switch and the light that it serves." Early in the year we had to pull out a bunch of #14 and replace it with #12. Talk about a pain. The paraphrase of the actual section as applies here, also noted by bud above: "Section 220-3b of the code requires two special circuits to serve only appliance outlets in kitchen, laundry, pantry, family-room, dining room, and breakfast room. Both circuits must be extended to the kitchen; the other rooms may be served by either one or both of these circuits. No lighting outlets may be connected to these circuits, and they must be wired with No. 12 wire and protected by a 20-ampere overcurrent device." But then it still depends on the inspector. and Scott I don't think an inspector will be checking out your garage. You're probably in compliance with all local codes. as far as grounding is concerned, from; http://www.codecheck.com/q_a_electric.htm "If it is considered existing construction it may either be installed with a 2 prong receptacle, replaced with an ungrounded GFCI or the code makes provision to run a separate equipment ground wire(green #12 min.) to bond the metal of the appliance to a well grounded cold water system.." Talking about frame grounding here.The OP has only #14/2 no ground at all. He's one step up with the GFCI and if it's 6 feet from a sink it's code. I think "Hmm water and possible electricity even if it's not near a sink" There might be the possibility of false trips of the GFCI but I haven't seen one yet. I just pulled a motor out of a neighbors dishwasher. It was a GE the fan on the pump motor had broken lose from the shaft and worn the insulation on the front side of most of the field coils. Finally wearing completely through them. Since the motor was mounted to the frame of the washer the frame and the door was electrically hot when the pump was running. Luckly none of their kids touched that when it was running. I think a ground bonding wire should have been installed here.
Scott Townsend wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

14/2 refers to the current carrying conductors.
They NEVER made white plastic Romex without a ground. The only Romex made without a ground was the asphalt impregnated fiber covered stuff shortly after WWII. That was replaced with a reduced sized ground in the 50s and by the 60s when the plastic cover came the ground was upped to full sized. You may still see reduced size ground in some transitional plastic Romex but there will be a ground.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

WRONG WRONG WRONG.
Nothing should ever be grounded to a water pipe.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:09:00 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

It used to be that they should. Is the change because of the possible use of plastic pipe, or something else?
The 120V receptacle for my washer is grounded at the electrical panel. The 240V receptacle for the dryer is not.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Another reason for no electrical grounding to pipes is plumber safety. A plumber must disconnect pipes and not worry about things electrical - things that are not part of his trade. Any electrical connection for safety must be unique to that electrical purpose. Code also calls for jumpers from cold water to hot water pipes at hot water heater, and jumper across water meter.
Mark Lloyd wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The new NEC allows only #12 for any circuit that has an

Really? Please cite the article.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
waldowonka wrote:

Yellow jackets on 12/2 (and blue ones on AFCI-protected 14/2) are a newish convention that the cable makes have brought forth; I don't think it's code (here at least) and at any rate it's only come out within the past couple of years. So don't presume that your cable is 14 ga just because it's white; I have much white 12 ga in my house. Look for the printing on the cable, or examine the conductors with a wire gauge.
If it really is 14 ga, replace the breaker with a 15A one. If only your washer is using the circuit, it shouldn't trip it. (If it does, something's wrong and needs to be fixed; your 14 ga has been overloaded. If the washer has a normal parallel-blade plug it should be ok on a 15 A circuit.)
Your code may require a "dedicated" circuit for a washing machine, and would prohibit two outlets on the circuit. However, I'm pretty sure even a "dedicated" circuit can be a duplex outlet, so you could replace the simplex outlet with a duplex and run the washer and the 'lectric litterbox at the same time. I see no advantage to adding a second receptacle; surely the litterbox would be happy on a good extension cord if distance is the issue.
And you could certainly try making it a GFCI receptacle. Nuisance trips from the washer are a possibility but wouldn't be the end of the world; it's not like it's a freezer or a sump pump. If they're too frequent then you'd probably want to revert it to a normal receptacle. (Actually, I have my sump pump on a GFCI and I've had no nuisance trips at all.)
(Were you trying to jumper across two hot terminal screws on a GFCI receptacle? No, no, no. Those are the "in" and "out" connectors; the former gets the power feed from upstream, and the latter are for feeding downstream outlets that you want to provide GFCI protection to. It is not at all the same as a normal duplex outlet in which each outlet can be fed from its own terminals.)
Chip C Toronto
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The NEC simply says you need a 20a circuit serving the laundry receptacles. That could be the washer, iron and blower for a gas dryer.
Mark says his dryer isn't grounded, that is the WWII exception that allows dryer and ranges to be grounded by way of the neutral.
CMP 5 decided in 1996 that the war was finally over and they now require 4 wires to a range and dryer.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.