Power surges

If it is everything then there a plethora of places to start. Neighbors would be first in my list. Especially if they are on the same transformer or line. Not if they are on a different transformer or line. Next would be to check all of the connections in the panel. Not a good place to play unless your comfortable working around an invisible servant that wants to kill you. Some humor. It would be handy if you had a voltage meter that had a scale that you could measure the voltage. Can you borrow one. Needs to have a zero to 300 VAC scale. Radio Shack has some that are less than 100 bucks.

If it persists then try the utility. Now your heading into a mess. There are standards that they must provide. It is plus 10% to minus 7% of nominal. That means that the average plug could read any thing from 132 to

111.6 volts. The sad part of IEEE 519 is the next paragraph says except for short periods of time. No definition on this one. Is a day a short period of time compared to a year, you bet.

If you do not want to borrow or buy a meter then it is probably time to call someone to come over and check it out. Plan on the problem going away when they arrive. It usually does, my experience anyway. This might need a recording meter left on the service for at least 24 hours, I would want a weeks worth of data.

Reply to
SQLit
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Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am missing here?

Reply to
Valid User

Yes, the ground can be energized. A code ground has to be less than 25 ohms to ground. In dry weather, you can connect a 20 amp breaker directly to a ground wire and the breaker won't pop. The circuit depends on the neutral back to the transformer, and if that goes bad, the ground circuit can get very hot indeed.

Reply to
Larry Caldwell

So suppose your outlet boxes and cover plates are metal, and there is loose neutral connection leading upto the outlet. Then it would be dangerous to touch the cover plate, when that outlet, or some down the circuit, is plugged in?

Reply to
Valid User

I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them somewhere.

Why not do this.

I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT they also have serial outputs a logging of events with configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This one may do this

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Reply to
Brikp

No, but if there is a bad neutral connection between the main panel and the transformer, ALL neutrals and grounds in the house can have a dangerous voltage on them. This is how over-voltage conditions can exist. When there is an unbalanced load and a bad neutral, the neutral carries a voltage that is out of phase with the more lightly loaded leg. Lights will burn brighter, motors will run faster, equipment will burn out, and people will get electrocuted.

While installing a hot tub on a branch circuit, I discovered 2 volts between the neutral and the ground at the hot tub. It was popping the GFI breaker. I called the power company, and they had a crew out to re- do all the connections between the transformer and my meter base *that day*. They identified a corroded connection at the weather head as the problem.

My parents' old farm house had the bright light and faster motor problem a few years ago. That was identified as a poorly installed connection in the meter base - aluminum wire and no anti-oxidant caused the neutral to corrode away.

In a single outlet, a loose neutral connection may cause intermittent behavior, or even overheating, but it will not energize the outlet cover.

Reply to
Larry Caldwell

If the ground wire can be energized, then why it is bare? Will it generate a current through you if you touch it?

Sorry for the novice question. But how the electricity know it will go through the netral first, and use the ground only when the netral is bad? Why not use ground first?

Reply to
Valid User

Most of your responses are nothing more than speculation. None mention the most typical reason for that problem. A weakened neutral wire is the most typical reason. Easiest to detect with a 3.5 digit multimeter (as sold in Home Depot, Radio Shack and Sears even for $20). The house is powered from two incoming wires (that share a common neutral). Some appliances and lights powered by one wire will see a voltage increase while others will suffer a voltage decrease. This is especially destructive to incandescent bulbs that glow much brighter but fail quickly.

Problem is not a surge. Surge protectors will remain inert; will ignore a voltage change. Protectors see nothing and do nothing until the 120 VAC increases above 300 volts which is not what is happening. Your 120 VAC may be rising to an unacceptable 130 volts (destructive to incandescent lights) or dropping to 110 volts (causes lights to significantly dim).

Simplest fact is by measuring voltage with that multimeter as heavy (120 VAC) appliances on other circuits are power cycled. If those other circuits cause a voltage change on this circuit, then you may have a neutral wire problem. Electrician is required.

Fixing a neutral costs almost nothing in labor and massive money in electrician's traveling time. So here is what you do. Make his visit worth while. First, have him upgrade or inspect your household earth ground system so that transistorized appliances also have protection. IOW the building's earth ground system must be upgraded or enhanced beyond post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. Most homes do not meet this requirement. Too many no longer even have the inferior earth ground that was originally installed. No earth ground is a threat to both human life and to transistors.

Also have all incoming utilities earthed to this upgraded ground as required by code. Furthermore have a 'whole house' protector installed by that electrician. Home Depot sells one minimally acceptable protector for less than $50 - Intermatic IG1240RC. You could have the utility install one at inflated prices equivalent to the overpriced (and ineffective) plug-in protectors. Or have the electrician do it right for much less money and superior protection. IOW here is your opportunity to also get transistorized appliances protected since the electrician is already there and inside your breaker box.

If your problem is not a broken neutral, then it is more complex which means the electrician is required anyway.

Another reason why you want that earth ground upgraded or inspected. During a failed neutral wire, then earth ground may be protecting the house from explosion. It is a rare occurrence but has happened. Gas meter exploded when neutral wire failed because electricity used the gas line to connect back to AC electric transformer outside on pole. Yes, that earth ground is also necessary for human safety which is why it, as well as neutral wire, should be inspected.

No reas> In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor"

Reply to
w_tom

An informed computer user knows that anything effective at a computer is already inside the computer. But that internal PC protection can be overwhelmed IF the incoming transient is not earthed before entering a building. Effective protection is about earthing.

PCs have internal protection that assumes a building has a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Protectors are not protection. Protectors are only effective when connected 'less than 10 fee' to protection - earth ground. Earthing is why household electric must be upgraded or exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements.

So what does that adjacent protector do? It can even contribute to damage of an adjacent computer when that computer is powered off. Again, this is about first learning what that protector actually does. Many who recommend plug-in protectors don't even have a clue as to what it does. They actually think it stops, blocks, or absorbs a destructive transient. 3 miles of non-conductive air could not stop that transient. Is a silly little plug-in protector going to do what three miles of air could not? Of course not. Myths promote plug-in protectors.

Effective protection is about earthing. So what does the plug-in protector avoid mentioning to sell their overpriced and ineffective product? Earthing. No discussion about earthing means others will recommend the plug-in protector only on 'word association'. If it is a protector, then it must be protection? Wrong. Protector and protection are two different components of a protection 'system'. So that myth purveyors don't know this, the plug-in protector manufacturer must avoid all mention of earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. The manufacturer forgets to mention that part because plug-in protectors with grossly insufficient joules are so profitable. Profitable especially when so often recommended by myths.

Any protecti> I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC

Reply to
w_tom

In order for electricity to pass through you, first, there must be an incoming and outgoing path where a voltage difference exists between those incoming and outgoing paths. Watch a bird sit on a high voltage wire. He has an incoming path - his feet. Where is the outgoing path? No outgoing path is why the bird is not electrocuted. Same applies to you touching a ground wire. As long as that energized ground wire and earth ground beneath your feet are same voltage, then there is no outgoing electrical path.

Fundamental to electricity. First electricity must flow through everyth> If the ground wire can be energized, then why it is bare? Will it

Reply to
w_tom

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski" artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun

2004:

15 years.

Is the

It may be a combination. Our whole neighborhood was knocked out (downed power lines) after Hurricane Isobel and the overhead lines and poles had to be replaced. But, a neighbor who has the same problem (I just found out!) said the power company told them in this neighborhood the power supplying homes is underground.

Can you correlate

Nope. Nothing weird going on outdoors at all when this happens. Though it does happen when there are storms, as well.

Do any of your neighbors have the same

At least one does as I just found out. I'll ask around this weekend.

What sort of major electric appliances do you have

All electric home; no gas supply lines in the neighborhood, so all of the major appliances are electric. Nothing out of the ordinary. Do you have an

No, but I sure would like one.

Did you make any

No. New heat pump installed 3 years ago, but the timing doesn't draw a parallel.

Do you have a battery back up system

I use a laptop, and I go to battery power when it acts up like it did last night. Copier/printer only on when I need to use it with an old desktop as a print server. They are on a surge suppressor.

How close is your home

I don't know about the substation; construction, YES, always in this area. New homes are going up all the time. HUGE homes. Nearest new developments are about a mile away in two separate directions.

Thank you John. The new knowledge of at least one neighbor having the same problem brought up something discouraging. They had contacted the power company a while back (I forgot to ask how long ago) and were told that the underground wires probably needed replacing and they would wait until they "went". No good. I could have a fire or lose major appliances in the meantime. I'm going to follow up. But how? Have an electrician do what you wrote above and present that to the power company? First, I will call them myself and get them to come out and see what they say after a new complaint. When I first bought this house almost 4 years ago, the power used to go out with almost every storm. I can recall the flickering occurring before Isobel, but the power doesn't go out at the drop of a hat since they replaced the overheads. But, the flickering has gotten worse.

Reply to
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", snipped-for-privacy@aol.comtosspam (Joe Bobst) artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun

2004:

Yeesh. Sounds like a major expense from some of the other replies. But it sure beats a fire! Thanks for the input.

Reply to
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", Larry Caldwell artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004:

Ok, you're scaring me so point received! I've checked the circuit breaker box and don't smell anything, it isn't hot, not even warm. The problem is that I can only tell this is happening when it is dark, because other than the refrigerator, I don't notice anything with other appliances. Mostly just the lights. I won't let this go, and I'll call the power company. I've never had any circuit breakers pop at all, but an air purifier has blown internal fuses (1 amp IIRC) at times, but that was before I moved the humidifier (which I only run in the summer). The air conditioner wasn't even on last night.

Reply to
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "Brikp" artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004:

Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING! :)

Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that this isn't something to ignore. Thank you!

Reply to
Cheryl

area, that we

that made the

Sure, it made for

as those quick

laying across wires.

Umm, I dunno where you got your info Lost, but first of all, that's now what "meter jumping" is, the power companies will not "surge" the line to burn off anything, let alone branches, and lastly surges, by definition cannot make the meters spin as you say and they do not add to the power bills. You've been listen ing to someone who's probably laughing at the people who believe that stuff.

On another vein, it is indeed possible to momentarily increase the voltage on one phase of the wiring coming into the house. But, that said, I'm not going into specifics because it isn't necessary for the OP and I doubt you would understand. The OP may have a wiring problem, it could be inside the house, and that's the place to start unless something points to outdoors or a faulty outdoor transformer (not likely; they don't fail that way). A good insptector will be able to tell quickly, probably by observation, actually, whether it's an in or out side problem and the magn itude of the problem.

Please don't spread misinformation.

Pop

Reply to
Pop Rivet

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", w_tom artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004:

You've given me a lot to read and I appreciate everyones input. I tend to agree that an electrician is needed; first I'm going to contact the power company with the new information that I'm not the only one experiencing this. It does sound like what you say, in fact, the one neighbor with the same problem owns a house built by the same builder so problems could be identical, and inside. I certainly will feel safer to have an inspection done on the inside since the power company might not be able to confirm or deny a problem in their equipment soon enough for me. Thanks!

Reply to
Cheryl

after one particular

subsequent surge. I am in FL

computers are on surge

recommend whole house surge

high.

said he has a whole

was cheaper.

True, it can really be a problem, esp in the lightning areas like FL. Whole house protection is good, but, and this is opinion, so you'll find many different opinions on this, even with whole house protection, OR instead of, which is how I think, it is still necessary to have specific protection on sensitive electronic components such as computers, computerized sewing machines, etc. In general, if you can afford the whole house protection, then all you need is the cheapie suppressors, like Walmart etc. sell, at each device. If you don't have whole house protection, however, then you should have something much more reliable and capable of taking a strong hit. There isn't much of anything that will save you from a direct lightning hit to power lines outside your home, but that isn't a very usual occurrence. It's hard to describe how "good" a protector should be, but in general, one wants a 3-way protection, and the higher the number of "joules" the suppressor can handle, the better the protection. Some of the good ones even offer equipment replacement if their products fail to protect you, but ... like I said, nothing is going to protect against a direct lightning hit. Google for "surge protection" +computer (use the quotes) and you can get lots of info on it and some are good for the layman to read and figure out how they work.

Pop

Reply to
Pop Rivet

seen many sags

with monitor.

I don't think they mean surge in that way. It would appear that "surge", for these folk, means any voltage outside operating range, wether it's lightning, crossed wires, power bounces when a line goes down, switching grids, etc.. Not too unusual, really.

Reply to
Pop Rivet

our area, that we

surges that made the

seconds!! Sure, it made

lines as those

laying across

stress the line

A stretched

a monopolistic

they do and they

maintenance proceedure"

"pennies" added to

say how many

knows.

my neighborhood

reason, they start

I challenge you to back that up with anything credible, concerning the "surging" to burn stuff off the lines.

Second, you're purely guessing, IFF you really saw it, about the reason/s for branches starting to burn. Personally, I doubt you have seen that. Sorry. You'd eventually flash into flame too with that much amperage available to you. Pop

Reply to
Pop Rivet

Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for direct burial it must be installed under optimum conditions for good quality life. By optimum conditions I mean that the insulation on the wire must be free of nicks and cuts and the dirt must be free of rocks and other sharp objects. Installation crews rarely make the extra effort to ensure a quality installation as time is money. When aluminum wire gets a little wet and electricity begins to flow to earth, the wire disintegrates over time.

I had a customer call me last week and complained that half of her house was without power. I checked and found that one leg of her underground service was dead. I called the power company for her. They responded a few hours after I left, but I found out the next day that they tested that dead leg and found it to be bad. They will now be digging up her lawn to replace it at no cost to her. Her house was built in 1986.

In your case you may have a defective neutral conductor or bad neutral connection which, as some other posters have noted, can be hazardous to life and equipment. Your grounding conductor at your water pipe and/or ground rod should be looked at also.

I suggest that you call an electrician, let him investigate, and ask him to call the power company if he feels it is their problem. I have found that the power companies respond better to qualified individuals and sometimes dismiss the homeowners complaints until they are very serious.

Something that you can safely try on your own is to shut off all of your

2-pole circuit breakers in your electrical panel, but leave the single pole breakers on. You should unplug your electronic appliances (TV, VCR, cordless telephone, computer ...) before doing this. If nothing works in the house, or if the lights are dim, that could indicate a bad neutral and grounding conductor.

I would be interested in hearing what the actual problem is after everyone checks it out.

John Grabowski

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Reply to
John Grabowski

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