Power surges

[Larry Caldwell]

Perhaps you should buy a book on basic house wiring. The pictures will be a big help.

[Cheryl]

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski" artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004:

I have already called the power company after so many of the same type posts alerting me that there is a problem. I've also identified an electrician friend of my brothers, but he's out of town. Hopefully the power company can test the voltage, but if there is an allowable 10% fluctuation, and the power isn't surging or dipping tonight (which is hasn't so far that I've noticed) I may not know tonight what the actual fluctuation has been going to. I guess last night would have been the perfect time to see exactly what was going on. An electrician is definitely in order because I certainly don't feel this is safe until I know how much it is surging to.

I'm afraid I don't know what two-pole circuit breakers are; This might sound silly and obvious, but are they the ones that look like double breakers? You don't have to answer, I'll go google. :)

I'll post an update once I know. Thank you and everyone else for the suggestions and possiblities.

[Lost-In-Translation]

I wasn't looking to engage in an argument, just repeating a news story in which the power company admitted to power surging to burn off tree branches. And yes, I've seen it, it is really quite common, especially around here where one in three trees is in the power lines.

[w_tom]

Two pole breakers are the 30, 40, and 50 amp breakers inside breaker box that provide 240 VAC to big appliances such as air conditioner compressor, electric dryer, or electric stove. Turning these off will not undo or temporarily resolve a defective neutral problem. In fact those circuits don't even use the neutral wire.

If other neighbors are suffering same problem, then this is a utility problem. Look outside. How does your electric meter connect to telephone pole? Follow the overhead wires. I suspect both you and neighbor share a common transformer - those large cylinders atop a pole.

Call the electric company. Tell them, "Based upon my description, an electrical engineer suspects you and your neighbor share a broken neutral causing voltage problems." Have that utility company operator reads back that sentence so that the sentence goes to one who appreciates the seriousness. Damning fact is other neighbors share the problem. Most times, a damaged neutral is only a minor problem. However I saw one house that exploded due to a broken neutral in utility's transformer. IOW call now no matter how late. Most every time, it is nothing serious. But only they can know.

BTW, to give you some k> I have already called the power company after so many of the same

[w_tom]

The most expensive protection is a plug-in protector - on the order of tens of times more money per protected appliance. Effective whole house protector costs about $1 per protected appliance. Even worse, get plug-in protector specs. They don't even claim to protect from the type of surge that typically damages electronics. They claim to protect from a type of surge that typically does not exist.

A big difference exists between the shysters who recommend plug-in protectors and those who make recommendations based upon engineering. The latter provide extensive facts AND - a most important characteristic - the numbers. Junk scientists and myth purveyors don't provide useful numbers nor cite electrical concepts. Fundamental - the plug-in protectors are obviously not effective due to no 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. Protection is about earthing.

Unfortunately, others let science (such as elementary school science) go over their heads. Those others, instead, look to how the presentation is made rather than delve into facts. An environment rich and profitable for myth purveyors. Posted elsewhere are facts posted with numbers. How to identify ineffective protectors: 1) no dedicated connection to earth ground and 2) avoids all discussion about earthing.

Wasting tens of times more money on plug-in protectors that are also undersized? Or install protection as it was installed before WWII so that direct lightning strikes do not damage electronics. Learn from myths that promote plug-in protectors, OR learn from science first demonstrated by Franklin in 1752 and demonstrated by the 25 direct strikes every year to FM and TV equipment atop the Empire State Building. The latter demonstrates why 'whole house' protectors are so effective.

Ask one who recommends plug-in protectors what those protectors actually do. Why? They must avoid answering this question to recommend plug-in protectors. Effective protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector. A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground which is why 'whole house' protectors are so effective AND why plug-in protectors, instead, avoid the earthing discussion.

Protectors, of course, is bey> True, it can really be a problem, esp in the lightning areas

[Cheryl]

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", w_tom artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004:

RE: two-pole breakers: thanks for the description.

After 11pm and they haven't shown up yet. I called them around 8. If they do not show up tonight (and they are running out of time for me to even answer the door now) I am going to print each of you guys's replies in the morning at the office, call them again, and tell them MY NEIGHBORS and I share a broken neutral causing voltage problems." Did I sound like I know what I'm talking about? It isn't doing it tonight. I guess this is why I keep putting it off until like last night happened. I was truely scared. It does that now and again, and with no storm or anything. If I call in the morning I can go home during the day, but not between 11 and 1. My dad will usually come over if I can't be here for something like this but he's on an Alaska cruise with my mom for 2 weeks (more panic not having my dad here! lol)

[Chris Lewis]

According to Cheryl :

You should be.

Loose main neutrals are _very_ dangerous. Don't bother with an electrician unless they're already there. Call your power company immediately. Say "lights brightening" and "I suspect a loose main neutral connection" and they will be there fast.

[barry martin]

Me again....

C > > I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC C > > literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a C > > surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them C > > somewhere. C > >

C > Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I C > could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING! :)

So that explains why ZoneAlarm was having a fit this morning!

C > > I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power C > > supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even C > > 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a C > > constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. C > > Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT C > > they also have serial outputs a logging of events with C > > configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is C > > and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This C > > one may do this C > >

for > Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having. C > >

C > > Just a thought. C > >

C > Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an C > electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that C > this isn't something to ignore. Thank you!

A UPS is an Uninterruptible Power Supply. Plugs into the wall outlet and the computer/whatever plugs in to it. Has a battery inside so when the power goes out or dips below a certain level it kicks in. Here I also have the desk lamp plugged in to one of the UPSs (I have multiple computers -- why should I be in the dark?!

As you are using a laptop it's battery acts like a UPS.

If/when you decide to get a UPS get a good one. Bigger is better (up to a point). The more capacity a UPS has the longer run time it has. (I've got a 900W UPS in the basement which backs up most of the VCRs and provides some emergency lighting -- the power goes off enough from the birds/squirrels playing with the pole transformer out back. 'Bout ready to get a generator!

- ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

• C:DOS> C:\DOS\RUN> C:\DOS\CRASH> C:\USER\FORMAT C:

[barry martin]

JG> Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the JG> power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried JG> directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for

Reminds me of what happened while I was working years ago. Power to the building was underground, from a dedicated substation. Feed between the substation and the headquarters building failed, blowing the substation and also overloading other circuits in the city, causing them to trip. Was told there was something like 60 volt-amps running through bare earth.

(The site was shut down for a few days until the substation and wiring was replaced.)

- ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

• Mommy Dearest: Do I have to send you engraved invitation? Sit down & eat!

[barry martin]

W > BTW, to give you some kind of idea how totally ignorant some W > 'experts' can be - look at the ridiculous nonsense from some W > idiot who thinks the utility surges power to burn off W > branches. Far too often, these types pose as knowledgeable.

I would suspect this is a misinterpretation of facts. The branch is across a power line. At some point it becomes conductive and catches fire. At the same time a brightening of the lights is noted. The increase is really due to the branch conducting but misinterpreted as someone at the power company cranking up the voltage to get rid of the branch.

(Seems like the fire department would get mad at the power company for causing all those fires! )

- ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

• He doesn't buy toothpaste because his teeth aren't loose!

[w_tom]

[RB]

It's unlikely from you description that the power company is instantaneously increasing the voltage to your house. What may be happening is that someone else is loading down the transformer that supplies your house and when the unload it the voltage increases. If this load were on just one side (120 volts) that would explain why only some circuits are not affected.

The best solution is to get a recording voltmeter and put it on each side of the line for a day or so each to see exactly what is happening.

RB

Cheryl wrote:

[Don Klipstein]

I would have an electrician check for a bad neutral connection in the breaker box or further upstream. If it is upstream of the electric meter, depending on your jurisdiction you may get the electric company to fix this or pay for fixing it.

Symptoms of a bad neutral connection or an open neutral are some lights and appliances receiving excessive voltage, often others getting low voltage, and voltage changing noticeably when some heavier loads or sometimes even lights are turned on or off. If you mix loads of different power factors in a house with an open neutral, it is possible to have all circuits have excessive voltage or the two sides of your incoming power line to have voltages adding up to more than 240 volts. But I think usually you will find some loads undervoltaged and some loads overvoltaged if you have an open neutral.

If you have an open neutral, it is a fire hazard because overvoltaged appliances may catch fire.

If the breaker box has lose screws that are not holding wires properly, you can tighten them. Be careful and use a screwdriver with a good plastic handle and don't touch the metal part, and you increase your safety from electric shock if you stand on a plastic plastic milk crate or a piece of known good very dry non-decayed wood. Do not stand on anything unstable - you may grab something live if you start to fall! The incoming wires are not shut off by the main breaker, and one of these may be loose. The neutral bus may have voltage on it if the incoming neutral wire is loose or not connected. Call an electrician if you do not feel up to checking that screws in your breaker box are tight.

- Don Klipstein ( [e-mail])

[HVAC IsFun]

I would consider a whole house Electric Panel Surge Protector...which is available in Menards for $59. It is wired into the 240v. in your electric panel and monitors voltage spikes, etc...and adjusts them accordingly to prevent damage to things in the house.