| Actually, sometimes it does. I've seen pipes split with the water
| turned off and the tap open. If water pools in a low spot, totally
| filling a sizeable section of pipe, it can split - and it can split a
| second low spot a day or two later.
It sounds like you've got some 3 Stooges pipes,
turning down and then back up again in an exterior
On Thursday, January 15, 2015 at 10:54:34 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
I worked at a company that tried to save $$ by turning off the heat in the warehouse. Most of the water in the building was shut off too. Plumbers drained lines, it cost a fortune:(
Complaints were filed with the city lack of bathrooms etc.
So the heat was turned back on, to the delight of everyone who was working in freezing conditions with 75 people sharing just one toilet....
I happened to be in the warehouse when the water was turned back on. a big mess, low spots in the lines, had leaks everywhere and a major flood.
fixing the broken lines took over a week, and cost a fortune. management later admitted shutting off the heat was a major mistake
We set up a molding plant that used water in their hydraulic system. The
machinery was old and water hydraulics had been more common in the early
20th century. Part of the system we installed was a cooling tower since
quite a bit of heat was generated. They shut down the operation over the
Christmas holidays and we told them "Do NOT shut off the circulating pumps."
Of course they did. Some of the exterior plumbing split and the cooling
tower was a 5 ton ice cube. They saved some electricity though.
Thanks for all the comments. To clarify: I removed the hose from the faucet
but did not shut off the water until after several days of zero weather (C
hicago area). The garage wall is cinder block; the living room wall, natura
lly, is drywall. In 25 years, I had no problem but always either drained th
e line or put on a foam cover.
As suggested, my plan is to open the valve in the basement and listen for t
he hissing of running water. If it doesn't stop I have a problem. If it doe
s stop I may try heating a section of pipe in the basement with a hair drye
r If the heat travels downstream it will likely indicate a leak. Supposed t
o get up to 40F tomorrow.
The question is, How much heat is the space inside the foam cover losing
through the cover versus how much is it gaining from the warm pipe
inside the house conducting heat to the outside to the warm the spigot
and the water inside the pipe.
These covers are stiff foam for the most part, maybe 3/4" thick, with
soft foam where they contact the wall, so as to fit closely over rough
spots, like where there is a groove of mortar on a brick wall. They
are probably fairly good insultators.
The amount of heat conducted from the inside of the house to the outside
will vary based on whether the pipe is copper or iron or plastic, and is
probably small per unit of time, The water will also conduct heat.
However much it is, it will happen continuously, 24/7, so the heat will
accumulate, except for what is lost to outside the cover.
I think a lot of people whose garden faucets freeze were close to their
not freezing at all, and the foam covers can make the difference.
But it can always be colder than normal, especially for just a few days
in a row, and I wouldn't suggest relying on one either.
So what conclusion did you reach about freeze-proof faucets? Was it
only so-called, or was it really a Freeze-Proof Faucet? If so, how
could it freeze and how could the water behind it freeze? Maybe I
don't understand your story.
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 4:04:19 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
ommon with the garage and my living room. I turned off that supply line in
the basement; now I'm afraid to turn it back on in case the pipe has burst.
I can't think of any way to know if the pipe burst without turning on the
water and waiting to see if it comes through the wall into the living room.
Any better ideas?
Properly installed and used, they work. I've had dozens of them, no proble
You can screw them up several ways:
Leave a hose on so it can't drain
Install it pitched down into the house instead of flat or slightly out
Leave an opening around it, so wind gets to the water part
Not long enough to get to where it's warm
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 08:05:09 -0500, Stormin Mormon
That's another thing my neighbor hasn't done, in the back.
I don't do it, but I don't *understand* it either.
If the hose is on the ground and isn't closed off by a trigger sprayer
or something at the far end, and the tap is 2 feet high, won't at least
the nearest 2 feet of hose drain In fact, won't must of the hose
drain just by lying there?
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 4:10:10 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
The freeze and bust problems are caused when the hose has a nozzle
on the end of it, which is common, and the water can't run out at all.
If the end is open, the faucet is higher, then enough water will run
out to clear the faucet so that it can't freeze and bust.
With freeze proof garden hose faucet, the actual
valve is several inches away from the turn handle.
With the hose on, the tube stays full of water,
with the hose off, the tube drains empty. It may
get cold, but the tube won't have the expanding
water as it freezes.
See this reasonable article:
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 10:32:45 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
His point is that it's not necessarily a requirement to take the hose
off. If the sillcock is a foot+ higher than the ground, there is no
nozzle on the
end of the hose, the water is very likely going to drain down out of the
faucet anyway. I don't take my hose off, just make sure there is no
I'd stop short of calling it SAFE.
Put a drinking straw in a glass of water.
Suck on it to fill the straw with water.
Put your tongue over the top end.
Pull out the straw.
What do you see happening?
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 7:28:08 PM UTC-5, mike wrote:
In general, I agree. Except that many, probably most freeze proof
sillcocks also have an antisiphon valve. That's like having an opening
on the top of the straw. If it doesn't have that, then I agree, there
is some chance that the water might not run out. I thought the same
thing with those suggesting that with a regular sillcock, all you have
to do is turn the water off and open the valve. Probably works most
of the time, but how lucky do you feel?
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015 05:47:45 -0800 (PST), trader_4
Agreed. Why woudl turning off the water make any difference, if there
is still water in the pipe. The purpose of turning off the water is so
that one can drain the pipe, so it won't freeze.
But turning off the water inside and opening the faucet outside is very
often not sufficient to drain the pipe, in those cases where the pipe
runs uphill before it gets to the outside faucet. In those cases the
water has to be drained from the pipe by opening a bleeder valve, which
one hopes is present on the inside valve, to drain the part of the pipe
from the inside valve to outside valve.
It's a 3-step process in many many cases.
Exactly. If you can't see this in your own basement, you can go to home
depot and look at one that is for sale.
Before they had these, I presume they used a T-connector and another
full-size valve to do the draining. Not called bleeding until the valve
was smaller and the flow rate was lower.
BTW, after 20 years, often using a pliers to make it tight or loosen it,
I stripped the grooves on the ouside of one drain cap, but found out
they sell replacements for less than $2. It's a set of 2 in the case of
HDepot, to fit all brands I guess.
Called Brass/Drain Cap Replacement Part, "made" by Homewerks Worldwide
and seeming sold under the part number VACCAPW2B.
It's in a box among the metal valves
| >Why wouldn't it? Pipe is still full of water, it expands,
| >it busts. Just like putting a closed bottle of water
| >in a freezer.
| Agreed. Why woudl turning off the water make any difference, if there
| is still water in the pipe. The purpose of turning off the water is so
| that one can drain the pipe, so it won't freeze.
You drain all of your pipes to the outside every year?
I never have and I've never had a frozen/burst pipe. I
shut off the inside valve, open the outside valve to make
sure there's no pressure, then close the outside valve.
Right now it's 5F here and a 6' length of pipe is going
through an unheated area to an outside faucet. I'm not
worried. It hasn't burst yet.
| But turning off the water inside and opening the faucet outside is very
| often not sufficient to drain the pipe, in those cases where the pipe
| runs uphill before it gets to the outside faucet.
Others have said that, but how common is it to
have pipes "rollercoastering" in the average house?
The OP is concerned with a water pipe running
inside the garage wall. What are you suggesting?
That he should rip open the length of the garage
wall because it's *possible* that the plumbing was
done by Rube Goldberg?
It's a good point that such bad plumbing can cause
problems, but it's not a likely situation. If you
really think it is then there is really only one option
for the OP: Rip open the entire wall now to check
the pipe and add special drain valves. (Remember
he's shut off the inside valve. If the pipe has burst
and the temperature goes above freezing there's
a good chance that not enough water will leak out
to show up as a wall stain or a puddle. So the only
way to rule out Rube Goldberg is to rip out the wall.)
On Saturday, January 17, 2015 at 9:29:48 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
That's what I've done when I've had sillcocks that were not the freeze
proof kind. That's why the inside shutoff valves typically have a drain
It only has to happen once, how lucky do you feel? If it's
a short length of pipe to a sillcock, you probably could get lucky.
If it's a whole house that you're winterizing, I've seen where
only trying to drain it at the lowest point resulted in some sections
of pipe still having water and busting.
I think the discussion has moved way beyond the limited scenario
posed by the OP. What should have been installed there would have
been a freeze proof sillcock, thereby eliminating all the drama
and providing water year round.
I don't see any need to rip open anything. When he turns the water
back on, monitors it, if there is a problem, then he can fix it.
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