painting wood using oil-based paint

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Hello there
I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like this
http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-content/uploads/Window-Trim-Siding-Repair -Austin-Pro-Siding-and-Windows.jpg
My siding is wood exactly as the same picture above. In Canada, is not allo wed to paint using oil-based paint! So I painted the outside siding using w aterbased oil.
But for the porch/fence/trims, I need to use oil-based because it is alread y painted using oil based.
I contacted Benjamin more and they replied with the following ++++ We no long manufacture an oil based paint in Canada or the states due to VO C laws. We still do have oil primers if you are painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content and then can be followed up with an acrylic solid stain. The only other option is if you would like to use a Semi-Solid, whic h is not an opaque stain, as we still manufacture one. It is called Arborco at Semi-Solid and the product number is K329 ++++
I did not understand what they wanted to tell me. I asked for clarification but I have not received anything from them yet. Coudl you please help me t o understand what they are saying? Here is my questions to them/you:
1) Can I use Oil primer alone? Does that primer has color? 2) They said that Arcylic solid stain should follow the Oil Primer. What is Arcylic Solid state? is it oil-based or water-based paint? 3) About Arborcoat Semi-Solid, is it oil-based?
Would appreciate any help. Thanks a lot.
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On 08/13/2016 4:41 PM, leza wang wrote: ...

No. Primers are just that, and undercoating to take the final topcoat. Generally, no, but for very dark colors they generally can be tinted. See the product datasheets for the suggested products to see what they say about this particular one.

Neither, it's a stain, not a paint, but with enough pigment/solids to provide a solid-looking coating similar (but not completely like) to the appearance of paint. It is water-based, the "acrylic" is a polymerized fiber from acrylonitrile (acrylic acid). Similar to the acrylic artists' paints you've heard of for years, undoubtedly.

Not if they can sell it in CA, it isn't. :)
I suggest going to the corporate website and read all about the various products and then ask a local paint contractor or paint store your questions.
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On 08/13/2016 6:07 PM, dpb wrote: ...

OK, we don't have a BM dealer in town so not familiar w/ their current product offerings....here's the link
<http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/for-your-home/paint-products/benjamin-moore-arborcoat-exterior-stain
It'll lead you to links to the full product info plus the different options within the product line.
I do note that they still list a line of "classic" oil-based products; didn't try to find where they're available if you were to want to smuggle some in... :) PS. I did find one home center web site in Illinois that has the oil-based product listed...was somewhat surprised to find that. Of course, they wouldn't be able to ship it you you in Canada... <http://www.foxhomecenter.com/paint/ben_moore_stain.htm
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"dpb" wrote
| I do note that they still list a line of "classic" oil-based products;
They no longer offer solid versions of their oil stains, which seems to be what the OP wants. Their "semi-solid" is just a glorified semi-transparent. It's can't be made to fully cover in 2 coats. Worse, they dropped out a lot of the drier in order to meet EPA specs. Their oil-base stains can now take days, even in Summer heat, to dry. With two coats that problem is amplified.
The first time I discovered that was with a sunny roof deck. The customer walked out on the deck the next morning and left bare foot marks! The following morning it still wasn't dry. The big problem with BM is that they make these changes without changing the product labeling.
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On 08/14/2016 10:18 AM, Mayayana wrote:

...
OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a stain rather than a paint.
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"dpb" wrote
| OP doesn't know what she "wants" to replace oil-based enamel; BM (I | think, see other posting) didn't address the question asked and answered | a different question entirely, hence leading to the suggestion of a | stain rather than a paint. |
Yes, but stain here would be solid stain. The existing is opaque paint. It wouldn't make sense to go over that with semi- transparent anything.
BM did answer the question. Their suggestion for replacing oil paint is to use acrylic solid stain, because they no longer offer oil-base house paint. (I don't know why they didn't suggest acrylic gloss paint.)
It gets confusing because "stain" is a misleading term for an opaque product. I'm just pointing out that while BM makes a solid, opaque, acrylic stain, they no longer make any exterior oil finish that's opaque. (Save for the DTM quarts.) So there is no oil option for the OP, other than expensive quarts of DTM paint. If you look again at the page you linked you'll see that the only solid color is acrylic. Oil only comes in semi-transparent and semi-solid.
This is something I've become keenly aware of because I prefer soild oil siding stain for most exterior uses, and would like to be still using oil base house paint. Newer products just are not as good. But no one except Cabot, as far as I know, now has solid oil deck or siding stain. (And Cabot's is hard to find.)
I actually have most of a gallon, still, of the old BM house paint, with the sort of dark teal label. I use it for things like my window boxes, where I really need paint that won't rot out in one year with exposure to weather. :)
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On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 11:54:10 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

It's not clear to me that BM answered the question, it appears they went off on the track of this being new wood and that the OP wants oil stain. We don't even know what question was even put to BM.

She went down the oil path because she thinks she has to use oil because the previous paint was oil based. AFAIK that's not the case. The BM application instructions for their Acrylic Arborcoat solid stain doesn;t have any restriciton on the application instructions about putting over oil based product that was used before. If you can't put it over oil based, I'm sure it would be in the directions.
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On 08/14/2016 11:39 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Well, I guess they sorta' answered the question within a certain set of boundaries although why one would ever suggest using stain over paint of any variety puzzles me greatly.
In the existing BM product line they can sell in Canada (and, of course, BM isn't going to recommend a non-BM product :) ) it's either an exterior paint or stain of the water-based variety.
_IF_ they'd really addressed the question of what to use over a painted surface, I'd think it wouldn't have include in the answer "if you are painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content" (although I suppose they could still be concerned about bleed-through even yet).
But why limit to stain, leaving out paint entirely???
Probably because the question was inadequately phrased would be the primary guess, but we've not seen the original question, only the response.
Anyway, it's all speculation at best, but imo best option would likely be to use a quality oil-based primer, then exterior latex enamel. If the existing surface is still sound, then with good scrubbing and other surface prep, _probably_ one of the "self-priming" products will be adequate; we repainted the old church building a few years ago and they used the S-W product; it seems to be holding up for the most part...
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"dpb" wrote
| Well, I guess they sorta' answered the question within a certain set of | boundaries although why one would ever suggest using stain over paint of | any variety puzzles me greatly. |
Have you used solid stain? If not you may be making a false assumption. It has nothing to do with the normal idea of stain. It just refers to a kind of non-enamel paint that wears away instead of peeling. Solid oil stain became very popular from the 80s until the EPA restrictions, for use on both fresh wood and over old paint. With each paint job, whatever has been scraped won't need to be scraped next time. Eventually it's just all stain, with virtually no scraping required.
Acrylic stains have improved, like acrylic paint. They're *very* adhesive. (A nightmare to clean up a spill after it's had a few seconds to dry.) So they can go over oil paint. There's not much choice, anyway, since there are really no oil paints left for general housepainting. Like the oil-base solid stain, it will wear rather than peeling, so that any scraped paint won't need to be scraped again.
The down side of solid stains is that they have a dull finish and wear away. Our house has asbestos siding. I use solid acrylic stain on that. I use solid oil (Cabot's) stain on the deck and on the decorative fence I built.
Solid oil stain is my preference for siding, but I'm not sure whether I can still get it. One store seems to stock it. Others don't. But that's also confused by BM. BM pays paint stores not to display other products. (Paint stores near me that sell Cabot's have told me they're not allowed to put it on the shelves due to an agreement with BM. I wrote to Cabot's about that, but got no response.) So I'm not clear about exactly what the status is with Cabot's solid oil stains. And I'm unaware of any other company still making solid oil stain.
I think it's a good idea to spot-prime with linseed oil primer, but it's not necessary. The stain soaks in somewhat and sticks well. In fact, the first time I ever used acrylic solid stain was on a fence I built of rough spruce. Very wet. I watered down the stain and just soaked the fence with it. Worked well. :)
| But why limit to stain, leaving out paint entirely??? |
I think it was just their recommendation, though I am surprised they didn't mention paint as an option. Maybe because a fence was involved. As noted elsewhere, solid stain has less manitenance in the long run. The reason for paint would mainly be elegance -- where one wants a smooth gloss finish. But I would avoid paint on something like a fence. It will peel. If I had to paint a fresh wood fence now I'd go with thinned down linseed oil primer followed by acrylic solid stain. Maybe not an ideal solution, but the EPA has left us with few ideal solutions. The technology just hasn't caught up with the restrictions. If I wanted a snazzy gloss finish on a fence I wouldn't know what to use. There are no longer any durable options.
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On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 1:14:23 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

What makes you think they did? We don't know what she actually asked and the response says nothing about going over existing anything.

I agree, which is why I said it looks like they didn't address the situation we're being presented with. I'm thinking she sent them something along the lines of that she wants to use oil based stain, so what to do.

Exactly.
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"leza wang" wrote

I want to paint my house porch and the siding trims (wood) which look like this
http://www.austinprosiding.com/wp-content/uploads/Window-Trim-Siding-Repair-Austin-Pro-Siding-and-Windows.jpg

The photo looks like plastic. Is that T-111 siding? and the window casing is really wood?
First, whether you use acrylic or oil paint you should use oil-base primer. Use the kind with linseed oil, not fast-drying. Linseed oil primer is the only kind that really soaks in and holds up. The BM type should say "Moorewhite" somewhere on the label. That's what it used to be called.
Use it to spot-prime, not as a finish coat. Primer will oxidize and get powdery after a few months if it doesn't get a topcoat. It's meant to soak in and seal, not protect.
In most cases it's now OK to paint acrylic paint over oil. It's much better stuff than it used to be. You can also use oil paint, but it gets tricky. The problem is not so much that you can't get it, but that it might not be so great. BM no longer makes good house paint in oil. And they no longer make exterior high gloss Impervo. What they do have is "DTM". Direct-to-metal. They're required to say it's only for metal. I've used it a few times. It's not as thick and tough as the old house paint, but it seems to hold up. Sherwin Williams also makes exterior oil that's pretty good. It has a sort of maroon label. I don't remember the name. Both are only allowed in quarts in the US.
In general I'd go with SW rather than BM. The two companies took different approaches to EPA regulations. SW still sells good oil paint in quarts and discontinued gallons where they couldn't conform. BM has tried to keep their market share by doing whatever would work. Their products can no longer be trusted.
So.... linseed oil primer. Then acrylic paint or quarts of oil. Depending on the situation, you might also be able to use acrylic stain or solid oil stain. Acrylic stain is basically non-enamel paint. It wears off rather than peeling. That might be a better solution if you don't mind a dull sheen. Solid oil stain is very hard to get these days. Probably impossible in Canada. Apparently they just can't make a conforming version of it.
So the advice from BM may be the best: Linseed oil primer followed by acrylic solid stain. (Unless you really want the gloss of paint.) Give the primer a couple of days to dry. The acrylic stain is water-base, yes. Except for the DTM, BM no longer has anything in exterior solid oil. (Maybe urethane deck paint, but you don't want that.)
If it were me I'd try to find solid oil stain. Failing that, I'd use the acrylic stain on the body but use DTM for any horizontal trim surfaces. Acrylic just doesn't hold up to water.
Don't be confused by "stain". None of it is actually stain. It's just paint without an enamel film, so that it generally doesn't peel. In the 80's they came out with solid oil "stain" to replace oil paint, in order to save on scraping labor. But it was really just film-less paint. They called it stain to differentiate from paints that dry to a hard film. Later they came up with acrylic (water-base) stain. Again, it's really solid color paint, but more like whitewash than enamel. It wears off so that you can usually recoat it with little or no scraping.
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:39:19 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

If I'm not mistaken it's LP Smart Siding/Trim or a similar engineered product.
http://lpcorp.com/products/siding/lp-smartside-trim-siding/
I have a shed built from the product. It comes primed and ready to finish paint. It's OSB with one face finished to look like many different sidings, including T-111, or in the case of trim, "rough cedar" as just one example.
http://www.lpsmartside.com/products/trimfascia/
It's actually nice stuff to work with and so far my shed has held up nicely. It's going on 10 years old and there's no sign of paint failure, insect issues, rot, or anything of that nature.
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"DerbyDad03" wrote
| If I'm not mistaken it's LP Smart Siding/Trim or a similar engineered | product. | | http://lpcorp.com/products/siding/lp-smartside-trim-siding/ | | I have a shed built from the product. It comes primed and ready to finish | paint. It's OSB with one face finished to look like many different sidings, | including T-111, or in the case of trim, "rough cedar" as just one example. | | http://www.lpsmartside.com/products/trimfascia/ | | It's actually nice stuff to work with and so far my shed has held up nicely. It's going on 10 years old and there's no sign of paint failure, insect issues, | rot, or anything of that nature.
Thanks for that info. I wasn't aware of such a product. OSB seems to be what I've always called flakeboard. Not something I'd want as siding. I'm surprised it holds up to weather.
I always find it odd that they make those fake wood products so rough. Like plastic doors and plastic planks. They'd be OK if they were smooth, but instead the companies overcompensate, making them look like sandblasted wood in order to not look like plastic. Which makes them look like plastic. :)
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 8:01:54 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

It's not the OSB of our youth. It's mixed with waxes, resins, zinc borate, etc. Extremely resistant to weather and insects.
http://lpcorp.com/media/1136/lp-smartguard-one-sheeter-brochure-english-1.pdf
http://lpcorp.com/media/3301/fiber-how-its-made-infographic.jpg

It definitely does not look like plastic is real life. It's too dark to take a picture of my shed right now, but I assure that there is no plastic look to it.
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Mayayana wrote:

Looks to me like factory primed wood product. In this case, no need to prime it, just wash it off to remove dust and dirt. Follow up with 1-2 coats of a solid stain (water based). This will give you a flat finish though. If you want a shine maybe on the trim, use a low luster water based paint.
Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams both make good products - you can safely price-shop between the two.
Also...if you buy stain, be sure to buy solid stain... That wood is already solid so stupid to use a semi-transparent stain on it.
If you ever have raw wood to prime and paint, best to use an oil-primer (and not a quick dry one), then finish with 2 coats of a water-based paint.
Been doing this for 43 years now and looking for the finish line. ;-D
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On Sunday, August 14, 2016 at 8:47:03 AM UTC-4, Gary wrote:

From her post, she gave us a pic of similar product to see what it looks like, but she clearly says that hers has already been painted with oil base paint. She's looking to go over top of that, so I don't understand the focus on bare wood, primer, etc. All she needs is BM Arborcoat solid stain, with primer for any bare spots.
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 5:41:55 PM UTC-4, leza wang wrote:

e this

ir-Austin-Pro-Siding-and-Windows.jpg

lowed to paint using oil-based paint! So I painted the outside siding using waterbased oil.

ady painted using oil based.

VOC laws. We still do have oil primers if you are painting a wood that has a high tannic acid content and then can be followed up with an acrylic soli d stain. The only other option is if you would like to use a Semi-Solid, wh ich is not an opaque stain, as we still manufacture one. It is called Arbor coat Semi-Solid and the product number is K329

on but I have not received anything from them yet. Coudl you please help me to understand what they are saying? Here is my questions to them/you:

No and you only use primer on bare wood, which I don't think you have. You'd use it on new wood or spots that have been scraped/sanded bare, repaired, etc. Primer is usually white. You follow it with a paint or solid stain.

is Arcylic Solid state? is it oil-based or water-based paint?

Acrylic solid stain is their water based product for your application. Read the directions and I'm sure you'll find it can be applied over the old oil based paint that is there, as long as the old paint is sound and any areas that need to be scraped are dealt with, etc. Solid stain looks like what;s in your pic, it completely covers and hides, very similar to paint except it doesn't have quite as hard a film surface and in my experience doesn't peel.
Arborcoat Semi-solid is also water based, it's a step back from solid, it lets some of the wood features show through. But on siding like you're showing, or a fence, you don't have features that you want to show. Next would be semi-transparent, which lets even more of the wood feature show, and then transparent. So solid is like paint, transparent is at the other extreme, and lets all the wood show through.
Remember that when painting, the prep work is the most important part. The wood should be power washed, but make sure you don't use too much pressure and lift the grain of the wood.
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 7:50:29 PM UTC-4, trader_4 wrote:

Absolutely not true.
Primer is required when you want to use Latex over Oil and that is just one example. Proper surface prep is a must, but you do *not* have to take the surface down to bare wood if you want to prime before painting.
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On Saturday, August 13, 2016 at 9:00:40 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Says who? Benjamin Moore has the instructions for their Arborcoat Solid Stain, which is the product she's talking about. Not one word about the need to prime when going over any existing product. They don't even call for a primer for bare wood. If they thought it was a problem, it would be called out in the instructions. I'll stick with their instructions.
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On 08/14/2016 8:30 AM, trader_4 wrote: ...

Actually the product description says
"Solid Waterborne Stain Features :
Ideal for pressure-treated lumber, cedar and redwood Excellent color retention and durability Creates a smooth finish Self-priming on most surfaces ..."
The key word there is "most"; it's not a blank "No primer needed no matter what" statement at all.
Elsewhere it has the comment regarding primer being a desirable for previously painted surfaces that may have become chalky. Whether the particular job does/does not need priming is dependent upon more information than we've got data to answer here...
It appears to me the BM response was predicated on the assumption of painting new raw wood, _NOT_ specifically addressing the actual situation of repainting. Hence the suggestion to use a stain which is just downright silly over paint, imo.
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