repaint cabinets: oil-based primer or water-based primer

[wendi]

I'm planning to repaint my oak cabinets. I'm going for the distress look. I was going to lightly sand the varnish and use Zinseer Bullseye 1-2-3 shellac primer. The reason for the oil-based primer is that in case I sand off too much of the varnish and expose the wood, the oil-based primer won't swell the raw wood.

That was the plan until today... I ran into a faux finish expert. He told me to use water-based primer (Zinseer Bullseye or Kilz Premium). Also, only one coat of primer, one coat of topcoat, then glaze and two coats of water-based varnish.

Is one coat of primer enough? I was told that if the varnish were sanded off, the stain can bleed through to the top coat. So, isn't two coats (or more) of primer neccessary?

He also told me there is no need to sand inbetween any coats (other than sanding the corners and the trims to create the distress look). Is that true?

I saw the finish product he did. It looks great. Only one coat of primer and one coat of topcoat? Is it because it's the distress look, so that one coat of topcoat is enough?

thx in advance.

[nospambob]

[John Willis]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:00:49 -0400, "wendi" scribbled this interesting note:

Not if you want a long lasting finished product. Sanding between coats smooths out the previous coat, knocks off any gloss that could possibly be there, and gives a better, longer lasting, and more professional finish. There is no substitute for elbow grease.

Of course if he uses only water based paints, then there is no sanding between coats since water based paints, in general, don't sand very well at all. Then again, they generally tend to show brush marks since the paint doesn't flow like oil based paints.

If you are worried about bleeding then use a stain blocking primer. Again, I would recommend an oil based primer, sanding, cleaning, another coat of oil based primer, another round of sanding, and then the finishing technique of your choice.

-- John Willis (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

[wendi]

Hm... What is varathene? I was planning to use MinWax's Acrylic Polyurethene.

Water-based is much easier, and I won't get dizzy from the fume. Brush mark is fine because I'm going for the distressed look.

Zinseer Bullseye 1-2-3 claims no sanding (it stick to anything), and one coat is enough. Is that a false claim?

My biggest concern is priming raw wood areas. I have a couple of spots where the raw wood is showing. The water-based primer might swell the wood! I'm going to use scotch brite (or 150 sand block) to scuff the surface, hopfully that won't reveal more wood. Can I spot treat those areas with polyurethene and then scuff? Or, put a water-based wood conditioner that MinWax recommends using for water-based stain?

thx in advance

[Baron]

The biggest problem with painting already "varnished" kitchen cabinets is the grease and dirt that will still be on them even after a thorough cleaning. Zinsser Bulls Eye 1-2-3 Primer Sealer is an acrylic latex. It is not the best for sealing stains and grease. You are much better off with Zinsser B-I-N. It is a 4 pound cut of white pigmented shellac. You can apply oil or water based coats over it. It is fantastic for sealing grease and stains as well as preventing bleed through. It is alcohol based so no smoking and open the windows. It dries quite fast so don't over brush it. Being a 4 pound cut, it takes a little practice in using it but it is really the best. One coat of primer should be all that is needed. If you apply the primer unevenly and miss a few spots, then a second coat is required.

As for sanding, why? You should just be scuff sanding at most for coat adhesion. If you are sanding to achieve a "worn" look, you might to practice.

The topcoats are the two coats of varnish. I assume by top coat you mean the top coat of colored paint needed to give that two tone look. Only one is needed.

The reason the expert's work looked so good is that he has had lots of practice and acquired an understanding of his materials, techniques, and substrates. I get the distinct impression that you have not done this before so it is likely that your finished product will look a bit on the novice side. Just be careful sanding for the worn look.

Good Luck.

"wendi" wrote in message news:Gm9Fc.41706$Yu.11874@fed1read04...

[wendi]

I started the prep work today. I started with the 150 grit paper; it leaves score marks behind. I think it's a little too coarse if deglossing is the goal, so I switch to 220 grit. Still, there is quite a bit of sanding dust trapped in the open grain of oak, so I have to vacuum the dust out of the grain. Or, am I sanding too hard?

My cabinets are not that greasy. Only a couple of doors around the stove have some grease and grime on them. I'll clean them with Jasco's no-rinse TSP substitute. I rather deal with TSP than oil-based primer. I know oil-based primer is the way to go for wood. I just don't think I can handle this much fume.

I'm reading the description of Bullseye 1-2-3, it claims to adhere to glossy surface including tile, glass and enameled trim. Maybe I don't have to sand? :D Oh no, it also says don't use T-S-P. Why not?!?

Hm... I'm confused here. B-I-N recommends uinsg 4lb Bullseye Amber Shallac for knots and sap streaks. In other words, B-I-N is not 4lb.

thx in advance.

[George E. Cawthon]

[Baron]

The 220 grit is probably too severe. Try something like 400 or finer. You are deglossing, not removing machining marks.

Some cleaning to remove the majority of the grease and dirt is always useful. It is a matter of how much time you want to spend.

As for the BIN, I misspoke. It is a three pound cut of white pigmented shellac. If the wood is green or in really bad shape with respect to oozing sap, a four pound cut of shellac should do the trick underneath the BIN as recommended. If your cabinets fit into this category, you have a whole different problem.

Residual TSP could interfere with adhesion of shellac. Rinse off what you have used really well with clear water but don't soak the wood. In the future, just use a capful of dishwashing liquid to a gallon of water. The idea is to get the wood ready to accept the primer / sealer, not to create a sterile surface.

Remember, you will be laying down pigmented shellac. It does not brush like wall paint.

Good Luck.

[wendi]

Baron,

I have resorted to spray painting. See my other post titled "spray paint job => no sanding? oil or water?"

I found that 409 works very well (better than Fantastik) to de-grease and de-gloss. Do I need to rinse with 409 or Fantastik?

I'm going to stick with water-based product; hoping that the spray gun will give a smooth finish even with water-based product and no sanding.

-wen

[Baron]

Rinsing away any cleaner is always a good idea. Waterborne can always be sprayed. The ideal finish would never have to be rubbed out either. Kitchen cabinet refinishes are rarely, if ever, rubbed out.

As long as you apply finish coats within the specified window, you should not have to do any sanding. Waterbornes tend to burn into the previous coats but not quite as well as lacquer. Your biggest enemy will be dirt and dust that settles into the finish.

Good Luck.

[wendi]

Hi Baron,

Are you saying that oil-based cannot be sprayed? Also, just to confirm, are all acrylic-based finish waterborne?

What do you mean by that? According to BEHR's instruction, I can re-coat after 2 hrs. If I left it any longer, I have to sand!?!

Lacquer. Someone recommends that over polyurethane which tend to look more plastic-ky. Is lacquer water-based or oil-based?

Yep. That seems to be quite a problem. I'm trying to setup a drying booth. I don't know if it'll do anything because most dust are generated while going in and out of the booth.

-thx in advance

[Baron]

(Comments found throughout.)

Of course oil-based can be sprayed. Waterborne can be as well. It is a matter of getting the right viscosity and formulation so it doesn't dry too fast or too slow. As far as I know, all acrylics, whether they be paint or clear coat, are waterborne.

Typically, finishes that polymerize like polyurethane, vinyl or acrylic paint, or waterborne clear finishes have a window where a second coat can be applied without sanding between coats. Waterbornes are a little unusual in that one or more of the solvents used in the formulation will slightly "bite" into the previous coat so the window may be extremely large or infinite. It depends on the exact material you are using. If the directions do not indicate a window but rather a minimum time, then you have an infinetely large window. Dirt and grease would eventually interfere so it is not really infinite.

Putting lacquer over polyurethane is a complete waste of time. Both are film finishes. Poly cures by polymerization, lacquer is an evaporative finish. I would be leary of putting a more brittle film like lacquer over a more flexible one like poly. Lacquer is typically "oil", really organic solvent, based but there are waterborne lacquers now available.

Spray in a homemade spray booth or room. Leave it alone while the pieces dry. Don't go in and out of your room unless absolutely necessary. One trick that works is to spray down the floor, walls, and ceiling very lightly with water before spraying your finish. This helps knock down down the dust and keeps it on the water sprayed surface.