OT sort of; bottled water

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wrote:

A tiny bit of sea salt in the water will work just as well 99% of the time, be cheaper, and cut your sugar consumption. (As I sip a Mt Dew ;)
sdb
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On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:27:01 -0600, sylvan butler

At the steel mill, the guys in the hot mills used to take salt tablets. I think they took them as they felt they needed them, from a dispenser on the wall, but maybe there was a minimum on hot days.
I have this vague feeling that they stopped doing that 10 or 20 years ago, or someone claimed that they should do something else instead, but I don't remember.

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I remember the salt tablet dispensers where I used to work over 30 years ago. Today, most people take in too much salt under normal conditions and it was causing more problems with high blood pressure, etc. Now the Gatorade and similar drinks is the way to go.
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Prove your assertion.
Provide the cite to a peer reviewed medical journal with a paper demonstrating any empiracle evidence for he utility of consuming 8 glasses of water per day.
We'll wait while you try to use adictionary to undersand the challenge.
We'll wait longer while you search in vain for such a paper.
If you can't or won't produce such an article, we'll all know what you are.
A loudmouth ill informed liar.
Have a nice day.
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Pepsico, parent company of Pepsi-Cola and Aquafina, is the company in question.
Here's an article from yesterday's Detroit Free Press:
<http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070728/NEWS07/707280305
This is a non-issue. I have known for years that so-called "bottled" water is, for many brands, purified tap water. Heck, years ago when stocking-up on gallons of "Drinking Water" for camping, the label said "Water source: St. Louis municipal water system."
The purification process listed was reverse osmosis. Recently, I purchased gallons jugs of distilled water from Wal-Mart. (Their "Drinking Water" gallons were out-of-stock.) The label says the source is the Kansas City, Kansas, municipal water supply. The purification process lists reverse osmosis, distillation, microfiltration and ozonation.
It's "good" water (to me) because it has virtually no taste. I do not like the flavor of natural spring water, probably because it has more minerals in it that the previously described water.
I work outside and drink lots of water during the summer. I try to use packaged ice with the store-bought water as the ice is made from virtually the same, purified water.
I don't expect any health advantages to drinking such water, and no such claims are made by the brands I use. In fact, I may be missing some good minerals. I don't care. When chugging a lot of water, I prefer the non-taste of purified tap water.
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JR

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On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 07:08:48 -0500, Jim Redelfs

Well, if it is really distilled, why would they need the other steps. Maybe they add ozone after the distillation, but the RO and filtration are to remove things that distillation would remove.

I have a friend who only drinks distilled, when he drinks water. I buy a gallon before he viists.

I'm sure you'll get them somewhere elese. I think the ones in water are just a trace.
When chugging a lot of water, I prefer the non-taste

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mm wrote:

I believe all of the "purified water" bottled water brands are produced from tap water. They most certainly are not "tap water" however as they are heavily filtered before bottling. Basically it's the exact same filtered base water that the bottling plant uses to produce the soda, just without the soda syrup mixed in.
The Coca Cola "Dasani" water is definitely produced this way (I spent several days at a CC bottling plant), as is the Pepsi "Aquafina" which is the one noted in the article. Also note that neither of these brands has ever even remotely implied that the water is "spring water" or from any special source. The labels have always called it "purified water" which is 100% accurate.
There has never been any deception as to what is in the "Aquafina" or "Dasani" bottles, the problem is our failing schools not giving people the skills to understand what the label says. Also, regular tap water, while certainly safe to drink in most every place, I don't believe is clean enough to have a reasonable shelf life if bottled.
Pete C.
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wrote:

The tv news story cited the sketches of snow-capped mountains they said implied the water came from springs. I don't think they quoted anyone else, so I had no way to know if anyone had ever filed a formal complaint about that or if any agency agreed with the newscaster.

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mm wrote:

Don't have a bottle handy, but isn't is orange snow on blue mountains? and how does snow on a mountain equate to a spring? Springs are often found nowhere near mountains, and mountain snow melt mostly ends up in streams and rivers. I see just another case of some eco loons trying to seize on any absurd thing they can to justify an attack on something they don't like.
Pete C.

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Jim Redelfs wrote:

I'm not buying it by a long shot. The water from the tap travels through miles of very old water mains that are semi sanitized (by increased chlorine levels) at best a couple times a year, while the heavily filtered water at the bottling plant travels through a few hundred feet of stainless steel piping that is fully sanitized probably a dozen times a day by flushing it with heavily chlorinated water.

They aren't exactly known for objective analysis of facts are they?
Pete C.
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" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote:

I'm afraid you don't comprehend the difference between the source of the water i.e. public water supply, and the end product that is bottled which is most certainly not the same thing any more than a bottle of soda which is made with the same base water is. That tap water goes through three or more stages of filtration generally including reverse osmosis which produces pure water that is significantly cleaner than municipal tap water. This filtered water is what is bottled for the Aquafina and Dasani products and also what is mixed with the various syrups to make the sodas, it is most certainly *not* tap water.
Pete C.
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wrote:

Agreed.
Rush commented on the Aquafina "SNAFU" the other day, implying that it is plain "tap water". I was shouting at the radio. (Rare for me)
While bottled water may come from a municipal "tap", when the bottler is done purifying the it, the water is a far cry from what it was.
--
:)
JR

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Jim Redelfs wrote:
SNIP HAPPENS

ROTFL.
What, its no longer dihydrogenmonoxide?
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I spoke somewhat abruptly, but I think my meaning was clear: water purchased in bottles under brand names is not of a higher objective quality than that which comes from the tap in most of the US. In fact, had I taken time to clarify, I might have pointed out that in some places, tap water is of a higher objective quality.
While there is a filtering process for bottled water, the standards in many municipalities (Chicago among them) are higher for tap water than for bottled water. In other words, in such places the tap water goes through more processsing than the bottled water. Testing done on bottled water versus tap water has shown, in many areas, that the tap water actually has lower bacteria count. This was, in fact, the topic of the Roe Conn Radio Show in Chicago (www.wlsam.com) just a few days ago, when the bottlers were announcing the new labeling. In Chicago, the reason appears to be that the city of Chicago has set standards for tap water, while standards for bottled water are standardized nationally.
A couple points to note: Chicago water is among the most sophisticated in terms of municipal water treatment in the world. Other cities have sent people to Chicago to learn from them. Also, the level of purity of almost any water supply in the United States is extremely high. You'd have to search hard to find a non-potable water supply in the US.
I am far from someone who is chasing dwon ways to abide by a "green" agenda. My motives for keeping abreast of the topic, aside from professional, have more to do with personal finance. The cost of a bottle of water seems to typically hover around $1-$2 per pint for water. At the low end of this, water costs $8 per gallon. Water from the tap costs several orders of magnitude less, and there is little discernible difference between the two products. The more expensive may edge out the less expensive option in quality in some cases, but in other cases it is itself edged out.
With all of the above being said, those who live in hard water areas may well opt for bottled water of the kind from a water cooler. Inthat case, the cost of the water is closer to $1.25 per gallon.
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" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote:

Please provide a cite to an example of a municipal water supply being of higher objective quality than the bottled water of the "big guys" i.e. Aquafina or Dasani.

Standards set minimums, product quality can readily exceed those minimums.

No, tap water goes through specified processing, bottled water may or may not go through various processing.
For example:
A "spring water" may undergo little or no processing, but it must be tested to insure it meets the standards for bottled water.
A "purified water" may start as municipal water, having already undergone processing to meet municipal water standards, before being further filtered and sanitized at the bottling plant to meet the standards for water used for the production of soft drinks and significantly exceeding the standards for bottled water.

This will almost certainly be a test performed on a "spring water" or other minimally processed water, not a "purified water" which is a very different product.

Again standards set a minimum quality and products regularly exceed those minimums.

Technically correct, however there is a very large difference between a water meeting the standard for potable water which is rather low and a clean, pure water. Potable water won't make you sick, but can still be rather disgusting to drink, while clean, pure water will actually be pleasant to drink.

If your tap water tastes sufficiently good to you, by all means drink it. Do not however assume that because your tap water tastes good and all municipal water in the US is potable, that other people's tap water tastes equally good.
I've traveled around the US a bit and I've found places with tap water that I considered quite acceptable and places where I wouldn't use the tap water for any consumption (drinking or cooking) and was leery of using it for brushing my teeth. Most places I've been fell somewhere in between.
For those in between places, if I was going to live there, my drinking and cooking water would come from my own reverse osmosis filter (and did in one place I lived). Where I live now I have well based water from a coop that is quite good quality, both subjective and objective (though a bit high ph) so I don't filter it further for cooking purposes. For drinking purposes it gets filtered by a basic filter in the refrigerator. I purchase a limited amount of bottled water for my emergency supply.

Hard water isn't generally the issue. I've lived where I had well water that was quite hard, but was perfectly palatable. The problems generally are taste and smell issues, or people who do not wish to consume the chlorine and other chemicals that are in municipal tap water and are not present in nearly all bottled water.
Pete C.
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Please note that I did not mention any particular brand name, so my comments were directed generally at the concept of purchasing bottled water. That being said, here is an example: http://www.case.edu/pubaff/univcomm/water.htm This is one of many examples that can be found regarding tap vs. bottled water. I am not necessarily talking about any particular brand, nor am I opposed to anyone selling bottled water. Because inflection can't come through here, you are perhaps misunderstanding the "tone" of my comments.
I am well aware that minimum standards can readily be exceeded by producers, and regularly are. Its really a cost/benefit analysis in my mind: the difference is inconsequential relative to cost. Additionally, you are guaranteed a minimum with the municipality in my example (Chicago). There is little to prevent Pesico or Coca Cola or any other bottler from reducing company standards to below that of any particular locale, as long as they remain above the legal standards set nationally. They could do so and people would not know it, and would not even be harmed by it. That is my point: the difference is so inconsequential in most places that people would not be affected.
Penn and Teller did a piece on this, with people drinking "boutique" water. It literally was being filled with a garden hose in the back of the reataurant. The comments being made, even different comments about supposedly different water that came from the same source, ,leads me to believe that (A) the water was perfectly fine and (B) people were fooling themselves into believing there was more to it than there was.
I have traveled throughout much of the country as well. I will be the first to tell you that water in some other parts of the country is not as pleasant-tasting as Chicago's water. I will also tell you that there are places where I can't tell the difference. I don't assume that everyone's water tastes equally good. I do assume that the differfence in virtually all parts of the United States is not worth the additional cost on an ongoing basis. If you are visiting, for example, and the water tastes awful, you might wish to purchase bottled water.
As for hard water, it isn't as much the taste as the mineral deposits in coffee makers and such that might propmpt one to use bottled water.
I am thrilled any time someone can find a legal way to make money. There are entrepreneurs everywhere. If you are connected in some way to the bottled water industry, I hope you make tons of money at it. I am an absolute lover of capitalism. I am simply saying why my money is not spent that way.
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" snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote:

Tone has nothing to do with it, you made specific claims that are not true:

This claim is simply not true. The bottled purified water absolutely goes through more processing than the tap water. Bottled spring water however goes through little or no processing, only testing.
Without differentiating between bottled purified water and bottled spring water, all claims or comparisons to "bottled water" are invalid.

People would indeed know it and be harmed, since neither bottled spring water, nor bottled purified water contain the chlorine, chloramines, fluoride and reaction byproducts found in tap water. Many people choose to drink bottled water to avoid consuming the chemicals added to tap water.

Now there is a scientific test for you. Probably just like the testing that the soft drink industry uses in claiming that people can't tell the difference between cane sugar and high fructose corn syrup. I for one can absolutely tell the difference, it is quite significant, for example comparing a can of "regular" HFCS based Dr. Pepper and a can of "Dublin" cane sugar based Dr. Pepper. I can also readily detect chlorine in tap water.

Many people consider pretty much any municipal tap water to taste terrible due to the chlorine. It's likely that those who have been drinking it for most of their lives are so accustomed to it that they don't notice it and therefore don't detect the difference between municipal tap water and bottled water. Those of us who have spent most of our lives drinking chlorine free well water detect the added chlorine in a picosecond and find it repulsive. There are also the people who consider the health aspects of not consuming toxic chemicals like chlorine, chloramine, fluoride or their reaction byproducts.

That really isn't a bottled water issue per se. Bottled spring water is hard water in many cases, and municipal water varies drastically in hardness from area to area. A home water softener is typically a better choice than bottled water since it also addresses the problem of mineral scale buildup in pipes, plumbing fixtures, toilets, sinks, tubs, etc. as well as the laundry issue where hard water necessitates increased detergent usage.

Again you're implying that bottled water is simply a money making scheme with no benefits, which simply isn't true.
Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:

He didn't say anything at all there about processing. He said that the standards are higher for tap water, not that the processing is better. He's right. There aren't many legal requirements for bottled water.
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wrote:

I use to drink bottles of Perrier*. Maybe in 1980 or so it cost 79 cents a bottle. I enjoyed the water and could down a liter glass bottle in a moment. It was before all the new rave on bottles water.
It had carbonation and tasted great...to me..quenched my thirst was the main reason.
Said back then; (IIRC) to be from "springs". I had doubts myself that this was a natural.
*
What's is Perrier made of?
Perrier is a natural mineral water. As defined by French law, this means water with a stable composition and healthy properties, as certified by the department of health and the national academy of medicine.
Perrier contains only mineral salts and carbonation (CO2). It contains no sugar, caffeine or calories. Flavoured Perrier* is a beverage made with Perrier natural mineral water and essential oil extracts.
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