Is my TV digital?

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Chris wrote:

If you don't have the manual, you can download it at:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model 'af44
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wrote:

It doesn't matter what the owner's manual says. A 27" TV which is just a flat screen TV, purchased in 2004, almost certainly did not have a digital tuner built-in. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. The converter boxes that are being sold will convert digital ATSC broadcasts and output signals that any older TV with NTSC tuner can receive. It's similar to hooking up a VCR, etc.
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On Jan 10, 6:36 pm, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (Chris) wrote:

OK, here's a related question. I'm using an outside antenna for through-the-air reception. I have a line amplifier just before input to the TV. Will the amp work with digital signals?
Red
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Antennas and amps that worked for analog will also work for digital. They simply take in and amplify whatever RF energy comes their way (within their respective designed frequency range).
The tuner is what ultimately determines whether or not you can make use of that RF energy. This might include analog TV (NTSC), digital TV (ATSC), FM radio, HD FM radio, and anything else that happens to be broadcast within those frequency ranges.
If you're using an inline amp, it's usually best to put is as close to the antenna as possible. That way, the gain of the amp can make up for any cable loss, splitters, tuner noise figure, etc. If you put the amp just before the TV, then you've already suffered some signal degradation from the cable run and splitters that came before the amp.
Chuck
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Actually, I'm using the inline amp for "lightning protection". Sort of a sacrificial item, hoping that any surge via the antenna will take out the amp before it gets into the tv. I know that's a crap shoot, but amps are a lot cheaper than tv's.
Red
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Red wrote:

What makes you think the amp will protect your TV set? That's false security. If lightning strikes your antenna(tower), TV will be toast. If and when there is risk for strike disconnect antenna coax and unplug power cord. Electron moves at the speed of light, remember? Ideally antenna structure has to have a good grounding for safety.
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I didn't say a strike, I said a surge. I've lost 3 tv's at a different location from lightning surges (nearby but not direct strike) coming into the tuner section via CATV. It didn't toast the whole tv, just the tuner sections. I've not lost this tv with the amp even during severe storms with static electricity dancing within the house. I admitted nothing was sure, but past experience seems to be on my side.
Red
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First a lightning strike is a surge.
Second, sacrificial protection does not exist - is a myth. A surge is electricity. That means electricity flows through everything in that path from cloud to earth. Only after does something or multiple things fail. You have assumed surges do damage like waves crashing on a beach. Electricity does not work that way.
Third, protection is defined in another post on 11 January 2008 in the newsgroup newsguy.general entitled "Lightning Strikes" at: http://tinyurl.com/22race Everything in that post defines what provides TV protection.
Fourth, you have assumed lightning surge entered on cable. Then what is the outgoing path to earth? Any properly installed cable first connects to earth ground before rising up to enter the building. Connected to earth means a surge will not seek earth ground, destructively, via the TV. What is the incoming surge path? What good is a 'sacrificial' amp when cable should already dump the incoming surge to earth before entering the building?
Fifth, surges typically enter from wires located highest on poles - AC electric. Incoming on AC electric, into TV, and out to earth ground via tuner and cable. Protection means the incoming wire should be earthed before entering the building. That is what one properly earthed 'whole house' protector does. Earthed to the same electrode that cable TV wire connects.
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I'm not going to get into this argument again - it was fought long & hard many times before. All I'm saying is that theory is one thing and experience is another. As to cable input, the shield is grounded but the center conductor is not. Any induced voltage on the center conductor goes into the tv's tuner section before it finds a path to ground. And I've had 3 tv's to prove it despite what theory says. Also, it does not take a strike to create a surge. Many, many times I've had static electricity jumping 1" to 2" arcs between appliances in my kitchen when there was a storm in the area but no strikes. I've had items vibrate on my glass coffee table many seconds before a strike a half mile away. And yes, my house is properly grounded. And yes, I have had a lot of experience installing commercial lightning protection sysyems. Enough experience to say that lightning will do what it damn well pleases despite what precautions we take. So the more we do, even it is not within norm, increases our chances of minimal damage. And that is what I said I did.
Red
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Red wrote:

Yes, speaking of experience, when I was an EIC at LARGE data center in the basement of a building, we suffered a direct hit. No visible damage to any equipment per se, but alas, our data stored in the mass storage devices were all garbled(trashed) needing 3 days non-stop restore operation from a back up we kept off site. I think when hit direct, there is no real 100% protection.
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First, your conclusion contradicts what industry professional say - including an inline amp as sacrificial protection.
Second, your amp solution (as others noted) does nothing if a surge is on either conductor.
Third, one with experience learned by doing this stuff decades ago - me. Your 'theory only' of using an amp as a protector comes from no practical experience, from denying how electricity works, and from ignoring science as well published even in industry application notes. (Electrical knowledge also would not have asked if the inline amp was digital.)
If you believed an earthed coax shield was insufficient, then experience would have obtained well proven products from an industry benchmark - Polyphaser. Your experience was unaware of highly regarded products from Polyphaser - an industry benchmark? I thought you said you knew this stuff?
Fourth, is the building properly grounded? Proper earthing only for human safety, or earthing enhanced for appliance protection? Does every wire in every cable make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to the same (single point) earthing electrode? If not, then earthing is not sufficient.
Fifth, a major difference exists between installing equipment verses learning why damage occurs. If earthing was sufficient, then you were not suffering electronics damage and not suffering 1" sparks inside the kitchen. 1" or 2" sparks inside a kitchen means one corrects an earthing defect. Those 1" sparks exist when you ignore an obvious earthing defect.
Your reply implies that you will ignore what professional say. Fine. This post demonstrates for others why you suffered repeat damage; what happens when one refuses to learn from and correct a defect. Posted only for the benefit of others. Three TVs and you still ignored the problem? 1" sparks in the kitchen and you call that acceptable?
Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. Otherwise telco service would be lost periodically for five days while telco replaces their computer. Telcos suffer typically 100 surges during every thunderstorm - and no damage. That means no 1" sparks inside the building. If damage does occur, a human locates and corrects the earthing defect - as Orange County FL did: http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm
Their facilities also were properly grounded. How did Orange County eliminate unacceptable damage? "Properly grounded" earthing system was upgraded to eliminate surge damage. 1" sparks inside a building due to lightning means a defective earthing system, which also explains three damaged TVs.
Lightning is not facetious - except where science is ignored. Reasons for damage are so well understood that damage is considered a human failure. When lightning does something unexpected, then a human learns from his mistake. Another human failure is to suffer damage three times and still not fix the defective earthing.
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w_tom wrote:

Direct strikes to a house are very uncommon and lightning rods are seldom cost-effective. The post has minimal information relevant to Red's cable TV.
Excellent information on surges and surge protection is in an IEEE guide at: http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf And one from the NIST at: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf
The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

As Red points out, a cable entry ground block only grounds the shield, leaving the center conductor unprotected. The IEEE guide notes that the voltage between cable center conductor and sheath is then limited by the breakdown of F-connectors which is typically 2-4,000V. The guide notes that connected equipment can be damaged at those voltages
A plug-in suppressor, with the cable going through the suppressor, will clamp the voltage.
Or a ground block that clamps the voltage could be used. These must be grounded to the common ground point at entry (as below) to be effective.

Not just to the same electrode. The IEEE guide has an example of too long a ‘ground’ wire from a cable entry ground block to the earthing wire at the power service starting pdf page 40. The distance to the common bonding point for power, cable, phone is critical, not the distance to the grounding electrode. The author of the NIST guide, has written “the impedance of the grounding system to ‘true earth’ is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system.” If the entry protector for phone or cable is distant from the power service a short connection is not possible. In that case, the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use” a plug-in suppressors with power plus cable and/or phone going through the suppressor.
According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. The 2 examples of surge protection in the IEEE guide are for TV/related equipment with cable connection, and a computer with phone connection.
A cable amp should eliminate the hazard from high voltage on the center conductor, but would not necessarily eliminate problems with power and cable ground references being at high voltage with respect to each other.
A power service surge suppressor is a real good idea, but will provide no protection from the 2 problems above.
--
bud--

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There are many digital circuits on most electronic equipment.
High Definition is one of those digital circuits.
Your 2004 TV is not HDTV capable. The antenna amp is fine.
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snipped-for-privacy@mucks.net wrote:

Actually, High Def has nothing to do with whether the cktry is digital or not. A set can have ALL digital components in it but still only be capable of managing analog TV signals. It's the TV signal that becomes digital for HDTV, so the set requires a tuner which is capable of receiving and handling digital signals. And it will of course, use digital components; it'd be a bear to design an analog digital TV signal receiver<G>.

Well, it's definitely unlikely, that's for sure. As someone mentioned though, the converter boxes to convert digital signals to analog signals will shortly be plentiful and at reasonable prices. Currently used antenna systems etc., should all work fine for digital signals as they are all in the same UHF bands as used today with only a few remaining in the VHF band. So if you currently can receive UHF you'll be fine for digital TV signals. I mention this only because I'm starting already to see some ads hyping special antenna systems for the "new" HDTV switch; those are ripoffs for the most part. I've also seen converter boxes already hyped for as much as $299; a clear ripoff.
Just for clarification, DTV and HDTV are technically two different animals too. If you have HDTV then you have a DTV but if you have a DTV it will receive HDTV signals but might not display in the expected wide screen formats and not with high definition. However, a DTV can still at least receive the digital signal formats as a rule.
Usually if an older set is really HDTV capable, it will have two separate antenna input jacks which connect to two separate tuners, one analog, the other DTV. If a set does not have a digital signal tuner, then it can not receive HDTV.
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:59:55 GMT, "Twayne"

So a tuner that can handle a HD broadcast signal isn't digital? That's news to me.
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On Jan 11, 10:11 pm, snipped-for-privacy@mucks.net wrote:

What he's saying is that TV's for decades have had some digital components, like the digital comb filter in the OP's 2004 27" set, which almost certainly does not have an ATSC tuner, which is what the real issue is. Even the ATSC tuners have some analog components as well.
The OP is confused in thinking that for the ATSC converter boxs to work, his TV needs to be "digital". It does not. The converters are designed to take ATSC and offer various outputs, including RF NTSC which you can hook up to any old NTSC TV, just like hooking up a VCR. Bottom line, his TV almost certainly doesn't have a built-in ATSC tuner and the converter boxes will work with it to receive std def ATSC that is replacing NTSC OTA, but the TV will not be capable of HD resolutions unless the specs say it's HDTV ready.
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:28:52 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Almost certainly requiring 2 remote controls (TV & converter), making watching TV more complicated. This problem could be avoided if TVs could have their power interrupted (switched outlet on converter) without forgetting any settings. Few TVs are like that.
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Mark Lloyd
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wrote:

Many remotes supplied with converter boxes can be programed to operate the TV as well. I have directv, and the remote turns the converter and the TV on and off with one press of a button. It also controls TV volume and all on screen programming fuctions for picture and audio settings, etc. The same remote also controls my DVD player and my stereo system.
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:58:58 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Universal remote controls help some, but it ISN'T as easy as a single TV with a remote control designed for it.
You might not notice because you're used to it. That won't be true for some people. I had an older relative who had trouble with anything other than a SINGLE 6-button (ch up/ch dn/vol up/vol dn/mute/power) remote.
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On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:59:55 GMT, "Twayne"
[snip]

I wish my DTV TV set had separate RF jacks. I'd like to use both cable (no digital yet) and antenna.

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