Is my TV digital?

[salty]

VCR's? Are you worried about your 8-track player and phonograph, too? Time marches on. At some point you have to make at least a minimal effort to keep up, or expect to be left behind.

[Bob]

Red is correct here. However, converter boxes may be available with timers that change the channel at a predetermined time, as some cable and satellite set-top boxes do. You can get a new VCR (or VCR/DVD combo) with a built-in ATSC tuner, but those won't be eligible for the $40 coupon discount.

[aemeijers]

Correct, channel 3-4, but hopefully the converter box also has the jacks for the 3-wire RCA component cables. Fancy converter boxes may have a timer with channel chooser. If your TV setup is OTA only, taping stuff on vacation will likely be limited to one channel, if you have a entry-level converter box.

Using a VCR on a satt box is already a pain. They really, really want VCRs and other stand-alone time shifting devices to Go Away, and for everyone to just get used to paying a monthly fee to be able to do what they used to be able to do on their own.

aem (who owns at least 3 vcrs, but hasn't looked in the junk room lately), sends...

[Twayne]

Jeez, do some research and figure out what you're talking about!

[Wayne Boatwright]

On Sat 12 Jan 2008 10:47:38a, Red told us...

I'm not the least bit concerned. I never change the channel on my VCR. My cable box is capable of programming the sequence of channels I want to record and the timing for them. I only need to coordinate the same times on the VCR.

My cable box is already digital. My VCR is a combo VCR/DVD player/recorder.

[w_tom]

First a lightning strike is a surge.

Second, sacrificial protection does not exist - is a myth. A surge is electricity. That means electricity flows through everything in that path from cloud to earth. Only after does something or multiple things fail. You have assumed surges do damage like waves crashing on a beach. Electricity does not work that way.

Third, protection is defined in another post on 11 January 2008 in the newsgroup newsguy.general entitled "Lightning Strikes" at:

in that post defines what provides TV protection.

Fourth, you have assumed lightning surge entered on cable. Then what is the outgoing path to earth? Any properly installed cable first connects to earth ground before rising up to enter the building. Connected to earth means a surge will not seek earth ground, destructively, via the TV. What is the incoming surge path? What good is a 'sacrificial' amp when cable should already dump the incoming surge to earth before entering the building?

Fifth, surges typically enter from wires located highest on poles - AC electric. Incoming on AC electric, into TV, and out to earth ground via tuner and cable. Protection means the incoming wire should be earthed before entering the building. That is what one properly earthed 'whole house' protector does. Earthed to the same electrode that cable TV wire connects.

[Mark Lloyd]

There's DVD recorders, although they're newer can you can get one with ATSC/QAM tuners.

Yes and no. The converter box could contain a timer. That's what happened with my first cable box. You program the VCR (no channel setting here) AND program the converter with the channel to receive.

There's also the possibility of having one device than can control the other.

[Mark Lloyd]

Universal remote controls help some, but it ISN'T as easy as a single TV with a remote control designed for it.

You might not notice because you're used to it. That won't be true for some people. I had an older relative who had trouble with anything other than a SINGLE 6-button (ch up/ch dn/vol up/vol dn/mute/power) remote.

[Mark Lloyd]

I use a VCR mostly for playing tapes and for making copies for people without DVD. Neither use has anything to do with as tuner.

[Red]

I'm not going to get into this argument again - it was fought long & hard many times before. All I'm saying is that theory is one thing and experience is another. As to cable input, the shield is grounded but the center conductor is not. Any induced voltage on the center conductor goes into the tv's tuner section before it finds a path to ground. And I've had 3 tv's to prove it despite what theory says. Also, it does not take a strike to create a surge. Many, many times I've had static electricity jumping 1" to 2" arcs between appliances in my kitchen when there was a storm in the area but no strikes. I've had items vibrate on my glass coffee table many seconds before a strike a half mile away. And yes, my house is properly grounded. And yes, I have had a lot of experience installing commercial lightning protection sysyems. Enough experience to say that lightning will do what it damn well pleases despite what precautions we take. So the more we do, even it is not within norm, increases our chances of minimal damage. And that is what I said I did.

Red

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Yes, speaking of experience, when I was an EIC at LARGE data center in the basement of a building, we suffered a direct hit. No visible damage to any equipment per se, but alas, our data stored in the mass storage devices were all garbled(trashed) needing 3 days non-stop restore operation from a back up we kept off site. I think when hit direct, there is no real 100% protection.

[gfretwell]

I don't use a VCR for recording these days but the Panasonic I have has a "blaster" that will change cable box channels, just like my RTV

[w_tom]

First, your conclusion contradicts what industry professional say - including an inline amp as sacrificial protection.

Second, your amp solution (as others noted) does nothing if a surge is on either conductor.

Third, one with experience learned by doing this stuff decades ago - me. Your 'theory only' of using an amp as a protector comes from no practical experience, from denying how electricity works, and from ignoring science as well published even in industry application notes. (Electrical knowledge also would not have asked if the inline amp was digital.)

If you believed an earthed coax shield was insufficient, then experience would have obtained well proven products from an industry benchmark - Polyphaser. Your experience was unaware of highly regarded products from Polyphaser - an industry benchmark? I thought you said you knew this stuff?

Fourth, is the building properly grounded? Proper earthing only for human safety, or earthing enhanced for appliance protection? Does every wire in every cable make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to the same (single point) earthing electrode? If not, then earthing is not sufficient.

Fifth, a major difference exists between installing equipment verses learning why damage occurs. If earthing was sufficient, then you were not suffering electronics damage and not suffering 1" sparks inside the kitchen. 1" or 2" sparks inside a kitchen means one corrects an earthing defect. Those 1" sparks exist when you ignore an obvious earthing defect.

Your reply implies that you will ignore what professional say. Fine. This post demonstrates for others why you suffered repeat damage; what happens when one refuses to learn from and correct a defect. Posted only for the benefit of others. Three TVs and you still ignored the problem? 1" sparks in the kitchen and you call that acceptable?

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes without damage. Otherwise telco service would be lost periodically for five days while telco replaces their computer. Telcos suffer typically 100 surges during every thunderstorm - and no damage. That means no 1" sparks inside the building. If damage does occur, a human locates and corrects the earthing defect - as Orange County FL did:

Their facilities also were properly grounded. How did Orange County eliminate unacceptable damage? "Properly grounded" earthing system was upgraded to eliminate surge damage. 1" sparks inside a building due to lightning means a defective earthing system, which also explains three damaged TVs.

Lightning is not facetious - except where science is ignored. Reasons for damage are so well understood that damage is considered a human failure. When lightning does something unexpected, then a human learns from his mistake. Another human failure is to suffer damage three times and still not fix the defective earthing.

[bud--]

Direct strikes to a house are very uncommon and lightning rods are seldom cost-effective. The post has minimal information relevant to Red's cable TV.

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is in an IEEE guide at:

one from the NIST at: The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses.

As Red points out, a cable entry ground block only grounds the shield, leaving the center conductor unprotected. The IEEE guide notes that the voltage between cable center conductor and sheath is then limited by the breakdown of F-connectors which is typically 2-4,000V. The guide notes that connected equipment can be damaged at those voltages

A plug-in suppressor, with the cable going through the suppressor, will clamp the voltage.

Or a ground block that clamps the voltage could be used. These must be grounded to the common ground point at entry (as below) to be effective.

Not just to the same electrode. The IEEE guide has an example of too long a ?ground? wire from a cable entry ground block to the earthing wire at the power service starting pdf page 40. The distance to the common bonding point for power, cable, phone is critical, not the distance to the grounding electrode. The author of the NIST guide, has written ?the impedance of the grounding system to ?true earth? is far less important than the integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system.? If the entry protector for phone or cable is distant from the power service a short connection is not possible. In that case, the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use? a plug-in suppressors with power plus cable and/or phone going through the suppressor.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. The 2 examples of surge protection in the IEEE guide are for TV/related equipment with cable connection, and a computer with phone connection.

A cable amp should eliminate the hazard from high voltage on the center conductor, but would not necessarily eliminate problems with power and cable ground references being at high voltage with respect to each other.

A power service surge suppressor is a real good idea, but will provide no protection from the 2 problems above.