In a normal pool, does anything *mix* the water to aid the filter?

Page 1 of 3  
I have one of those supposedly self-cleaning pools, which isn't cleaning all that well - so - I was just wondering how "normal" pools work before I turn off the cleaning system completely.
My basic question is "How does a normal pool mix up the water?", and, "How does a normal pool suck water from the skimmers?"
I'm guessing there is no mixing of water in a normal pool; and I'm guessing the skimmers suck water from the surface and from below the surface.
To explain why I ask these simple questions ... in my pool, there are about 15 pop-up heads that clean debris by mixing up the water, pushing the water and debris to the deep end of the pool, where a steep-sloped entrapment basin is used to funnel water & debris out via the one main drain at the deepest point in the pool.
These 15 PCC2000 pop-up heads all work off a single pump, where the flow of water is *not* filtered. The water goes from the two skimmers to the cleaner pump and back to the 15 pop-up heads via two Paramount water valves (in a setup called a 9-port system) on the pool deck.
The main pool (exclusive of spa) has one floor drain and two wall drains, one of which is at the deep end near the floor drain, and the other of which is below the skimmer in the shallow end.
Note: The spa has two drains on the floor, and a separate pump solely for the water jets. Plus it has some of the 15 pop-up heads.
The reason I ask the two questions is two-fold: 1. I plan on turning off the (ineffective) cleaning system for a while. 2. I don't understand the wall drain underneath one skimmer (i.e., I'm not sure if it's for the cleaning system, or if it's for the filtering system.)
If I turn off the (currently ineffective) cleaning system, then the pool water will still filter from the single main floor drain and from the two spa floor drains (and, I guess, from the two wall drains).
But, nothing will mix the water (and I'll have to vacuum debris, but, there isn't all that much debris in the summer anyway).
Hence my two (seemingly basic) questions: Q1: Do normal pools bother to *mix* the water for the filter? Q2: Do normal pools have a wall drain below one skimmer but not the other?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 02:26:57 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

BTW, has you ever *rebuilt* your PCC2000 water valve innards?
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/9207080524_f46fef3399_z.jpg
My 9-port system seem to be clean and working - but the pistons seem to be sticking - such that the water pressure is in the red zone (at about 8 psi for both water valves, steady).
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/9204296263_ab23362334_z.jpg
Also, does anyone know what this thing is supposed to do?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9207082440_1983b1432b_z.jpg
Is it missing an internal part?
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9207082602_a54e434f85_z.jpg
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 10:26:57 PM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

I don't know about all pools, but here the Polaris pool cleaner wanders around vacuuming up stuff on the bottom. Whatever it doesn't catch, dirt so fine it passes through the Polaris bag, etc, winds up kicked up in the water. It also has a tail with a foam scrub on it that moves around and while it's rubbing the pool surface, dirt gets kicked up. Once stirred up, it remains in the water for awhile, with some of it making it's way to one of the skimmers or the bottom drain.

No wall drains here, just two skimmers, one bottom drain.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 05:21:01 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I see. The pool cleaner stirs things up so that they can get to the main drain.

There must be a "safety" drain somewhere, isn't there?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:11:27 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

What's a safety drain?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:26:24 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I probably am not using the proper term; but what I mean is the type of drain that I have on the wall which is not meant to be a primary drain; but is meant to merely prevent the main drain on the floor from creating suction enough to rip someone's bowels out were they to sit on the thing (were the cover to be removed).
This wall drain is situated near the main drain and it's sole purpose is to prevent the main drain from developing enough suction to be dangerous.
Googling, I find the September 28, 2011 spec here: http://www.poolsafely.gov/news-resources/events/public-meetings/cpsc-decision-on-unblockable-drains/
More information here: http://www.poolsafely.gov/industry-operators-professionals/safety-equipment/drain-covers/
"some state standards require that the water velocity through grates not exceed 1.5 feet per second (fps) with one drain 100 percent blocked."
The way I understand it is that, for safety reasons, you would want not only an unblockable main drain, but also a safety backup drain, so that, were the main drain to be blocked, it wouldn't develop full suction (due to the other drain on the wall picking up the slack).
I may be wrong though - as I do not present myself as a pool or pool safety expert.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Friday, July 5, 2013 3:07:31 AM UTC-4, Danny D. wrote:

Again, you have not only the bottom drain, but 2 skimmers, for a total of 3 intakes.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/3/2013 9:26 PM, Danny D. wrote:

I'm surprised your system doesn't work. You might have other issues. Do you regularly check your chemicals?
I don't remember all the details of your pool but there are several factors. Filter medium being primary.
In answer to your question, the water in a regular pool mixes by:
Current, like in your pool
Swimmers
Brushing (ugh)
Robots (ie. Polaris)
I brush or run my Polaris every day. I can be a PITA really. The concept of your pool is a good one but I might question the execution. If it's otherwise working properly and, the chemicals are right, I'd question the filter medium.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 09:33:00 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Oh, you're right about that! The self-cleaning system is a maintenance nightmare.
For example, these water valves are not working right:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2846/9207080524_f46fef3399_z.jpg
I think the pistons are sticking:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5340/9204296263_ab23362334_z.jpg
Plus, there is this "Flo-Control" thing that I don't understand:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5450/9207082440_1983b1432b_z.jpg
The labeling implies there is a valve under it, but there's nothing when I open the cap (maybe something is missing?):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9207082602_a54e434f85_z.jpg

Chemicals are great. I keep the chlorine at about 10 ppm (yes, I know that's way higher than most of you - but I have to keep the algae down). The PH is always about 7.5, and the rest of the stuff I periodically check at the pool store and it is generally good (although phosphates are often on the high side).

I just cleaned the cartridge filters. My problem is debris, not clean water. There is no vacuum. So the cleaning system has to sweep all the debris to the main drain for it to pick it all up.
The skimmers take care of surface debris, but the skimmers are not filtered so anything not caught in the baskets is pushed back into the pool from the skimmers.

Hmmmmm.... Current -> mine sets up a current from the pop-up heads

Swimmers -> mine is almost never swum in (unless we have visitors) Brushing -> ugh... I brush the walls of green algae every day Robots -> Hmmm... I have no robots (other than the pop-up heads)

After reading the following references, I'm now pretty sure that the whole system isn't working properly - and specifically - my water valves:
0. Videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ParamountHowTo
1. Especially this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoHlXfgAX7Y
2. PC2000 Manual: http://www.1paramount.com/products/aapdf/HomeownersSystemsManual.pdf 3. Water Valve Manual: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/aapdf/Water_Valve.pdf 4. Blog: http://kurtatparamount.com/technical-forum 5. FAQ: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/faq/pcc.php 6. System Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/pcc/ 7. Water Valve Description: http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/valve/
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/4/2013 1:07 PM, Danny D wrote:

Get the PH to 7.2 and phosphates to zero. Two no brainers. I think the chlorine is too high and if you want the chlorine to be more effective lower the PH.

Yeah... your system is beyond me. I'd much rather stick with the evil I know. You need to get the debris out. While you're figuring it out you could cut back any vegetation and get one of those skimming baskets designed to clean the bottom of the pool.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rsxDG5LlL._SX450_.jpg
I had one that worked better than my Polaris and cheaper to run too. I could clean the pool in about 8 minutes what it takes the Polaris an hour to clean. The only advantage is the Polaris stirs the water up better.
If you're brushing a large amount of algae every day off the walls it's probably your PH and phosphates, but get all of your chemicals right. You're growing too much algae. Keep brushing and cleaning too. It sucks but you gotta do it. If necessary, get one of those digital PH readers and buffer we were showing you. I've got one and it helps to check your PH often because every-time you add chemicals it has the potential to knock off your PH.
After you get you algae under control it will get easier.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 13:25:30 -0500, gonjah wrote:

Hmmm... I had not realized the chlorine will be more effective at a lower pH. It's easy to add muriatic acid, so, if that's the right approach, I'll gladly lower the pH.
It would also keep some of the calcium scale off the pool walls (which, I think, harbors the algae).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/4/2013 1:43 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Be sure to eliminate the phosphates too.
PR-10000 is the cheapest phosphate remover. Around here it's only available online. The phosphate removers at the pool store here are way too expensive.
PR-10000 also works to assist sand filters. I don't know your medium but you might have to clean your filter after using a phosphate remover. Just keep an eye on your pressure.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 14:13:40 -0500, gonjah wrote:

It's about $100 a gallon: http://www.stevethepoolman.com/Orenda-PR-10000-Phosphate-Remover-Concentrate
So, I'm looking up *how* it works (maybe there is something cheaper?).
Reading the MSDS: http://orendatech.com/files/2011/12/PR-10000-MSDS.pdf It seems to be composed of magic: "Proprietary rare earth and compatible compounds - Patent Pending"
Hmmm.... something fishy about that but, moving on, I find that the phosphate removers only remove one form of phosphate, orthophosphate (inorganic phosphate) and not small organic phosphates that algae can still use (though more slowly).
Digging deeper, I find that if we maintain the free chlorine level at a minimum FC of at least 7.5% of the CYA level, the chlorine alone should kill the algae quicker than they can grow.
Since I'm only using a basic Chlorine:pH kit, I'll have to stop off at Leslies for a test of my water to see what the CYA level is currently.
The bad news is that algae can apparently store phosphates for weeks, so, starving them might not be the only way to get rid of them.
I'm reading s'more but this is getting long'ish ...

Mine is cloth filter.
PS: Up until about last year, I was using algaecide and not phosphate remover. The copper algaecide was a deep dark blue, which stained the pool ... so I stopped using it (it seems every chemical has a pro and a con).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 19:53:14 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I'm all for making my own solutions out of the basic chemicals.
Reading deeper on PR-10000, I find this: "the Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover appears to primarily contain lanthanum chloride (note under toxicity data the acute oral effects as 100% LaCl3). The pH is low for the product and the thermal oxidative decomposition can produce fumes of hydrogen chloride (i.e. hydrochloric acid) and metal oxides. This is consistent with lanthanum chloride because it hydrolyzes in water to produce lanthanum hydroxide and hydrochloric acid, thereby lowering the pH (or alternatively, putting lanthanum chloride into an acidic water solution can make it less likely to form lathanum hydroxide) and with heat this can produce lanthanum oxide which is a metal oxide."
Googling for Lanthanum Chloride, I start with Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanthanum%28III%29_chloride which confirms it's use to precipitate phosphates from solutions.
The MSDS for Lanthanum Chloride: http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId 24457 gives the CAS number as Lanthanum chloride 10099-58-8
It's about a dollar a gram for the 99.99% anhydrous stuff: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lanthanum-Chloride-Anhydrous-99-93-Metals-Basis-Certified-50g-/251262714936
So, the question is what is the dosage (in grams) of LaCl3 in PR-10000?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/4/2013 3:35 PM, Danny D. wrote:

Don't know. When you find out let us know. I use it in very small amounts. Like I said, I think I'm using it more as a filter assist rather than a phosphate remover since I haven't had measurable phosphates for as long as I can remember. Maybe a couple of years now.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 15:47:07 -0500, gonjah wrote:

I'll ask around, as I know some good chemists.
It would be nice if the $1 a gram Lanthanum Chloride is used in minute doses, say, a gram at a time. Apparently it will precipitate the orthophosphates, so, the water may need a clarifier (or just time).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 20:35:01 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

I found this on the web, which did a cost comparison of the store-bought phosphate removers ...
"The PR-10000 can be purchased for $31 per quart or $98 per gallon where one quart will remove 10,000 ppb phosphates in 10,000 gallons. Compare this to 3 liters of PhosFree for $25 (7-13% lanthanum chloride) or commercial strength for $40 (15-40% lanthanum chloride) where the latter removes 3000 ppb from 20,000 gallons so 6000 ppb from 10,000 gallons. In 10,000 gallons, the PR-10000 by the quart is $3.10 per 1000 ppb phosphate, by the gallon it's $2.45, while the PhosFree Commercial Strength is $6.67 per 1000 ppb phosphate. Also compare this to SeaKlear phosphate remover here at $20 per quart so for 10,000 gallons that's $3.33 per 1000 ppb so closer to the Orenda PR-10000 product."
I'm still working on the calculations for the cost comparison to just putting the right amount of chemical-grade Lanthanum Chloride into the pool though ...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 05 Jul 2013 07:40:21 -0700, Oren wrote:

I couldn't make out the chemical ingredients from the picture but NMP seems to be a 41.4% (by wt?) Sodium Bromide algaecide. http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Product.jsp?REG_NR 533700011&DIST_NR5337
They deprecate the stuff here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/polyquat-60-vs-no-more-problems-sodium-bromide-t9277.html By saying: "Sodium bromide added to a chlorine pool will use up some chlorine as the bromide is converted to bromine. They say this ... when they say "No Mor Problems affects the test for chlorine initially and causes a lower reading than is actually occurring." This is most effective as an algaecide in high CYA pools because bromine does not combine with CYA so is at "full strength". An initial treatment of 3 fluid ounces per 5000 gallons, assuming a density of the product close to water, would be 88.7 ml * 1 g/ml * 0.414 = 36.7 grams in 18,927 liters or 36.7 * 1000 / 18927 = 1.9 mg/L sodium bromide which is 1.5 ppm bromine (and would consume about 0.8 ppm chlorine). Remember that our shock levels are roughly equivalent to having 0.6 ppm chlorine (at pH 7.5) with no CYA. Though it would appear that the bromine is at a much higher level than chlorine, it is also a weaker oxidizer than chlorine so the net effect is that this product is basically no better than maintaining appropriate chlorine levels. If someone has high CYA in their pool, then as you know, they need to maintain higher FC levels to prevent algae growth. As an alternative, at extra cost, this product can be used so then you don't need to maintain a higher FC level."
Most of that description above went over my head, but, it doesn't seem like they're as big a fan of the stuff as your friend is. I think they concluded it only works when the chlorine isn't working because of high conditioner levels. The cheapest solution, one would think, would be to simply reduce the conditioner levels (by draining a bit & refilling).
Interestingly, I had used (in the past), a copper algaecide, which had the side effect (other than draining my wallet) of turning my dark gray pool which has a heavy coating of whitish calcium deposits, into a a pretty blue green color that other people pay a lot for! http://www.flickr.com/photos/98287134@N02/9208585061/sizes/o/in/photostream/
So, as with all chemicals, the side effects are something the pool stores don't tell you about. :)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

They will sell you all kinds of algaecides, but until you eliminate the phosphates, you'll continue to have algae problems I've ben using a phosphate remover for 3-4 yrs now and have never had a problem with algae since using it YMMV
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/5/2013 12:42 PM, ChairMan wrote:

Yeah. Same here unless my chlorine and PH wander off.
PR-10000 has made my life much simpler at a fraction of the cost of Phos Free.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Site Timeline

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.