Hi, I've found an engineer that I feel comfortable with and I've given him my drawings for an estimate. This is for a residence that employs a lot of commercial techniques: suspended concrete floors, open web joists made out of HSS, all masonry cavity walls, etc.
It looks like I'll get my building permit but the building dept wants every page of the drawings stamped. They've delegated all structural inspections to him.
My question is how should our deal be structured? Should I pay the engineer like a sub? 60% now, 40% after I get my permit? How to I insure he will do all my post permit inspections without extra fees?
I've never dealt with an engineer before. I just want to know how these things are normally done. I want it fair for both of us.
Don't confuse engineers (educated, professional, registered, and regulated) with contractors or used car salesmen. Simply ask him what's appropriate. If he says "Payment on delivery of the drawings," pay him.
Sounds to me like you're having him do two jobs:
1) the strutural design & resulting drawings so you can get a permit & get it built
2) structural inspection to insure that the as-built condition matches his design intent, ie the structure looks like the dwgs
I'm guessing that the design of the building (not the structural design) is yours & it's just too "non-standard" for the building dept to handle.
They want the EOR to assume all liability (as he should in this case since he's doing the structural design & compliance)
I chop the work up;
pay for the structual design / dwgs when the permit is issued (he might want some partial pay if its a huge job)
How to pay for the "structural inspections"?????? hmmmmm
Generally structural compliance inspections (actually called "observation") are not as intensive as one would think.
If the both of you want 100% strict compliance with the design intent of the dwgs (& you probably do since this isn't your run-of-the-mill stick framed house) you're probably going to need a special breed on contractor
better to "build-in" compliance rather than try to "inspect-in" compliance; a good working relationship between the contractor & the engineer will go along way to getting the thing done right the first time rather than constantlhy fixing stuff that got done wrong. A pre-construction meeting is highly reccommended here. If the contractor really understands the design intent & feels that the engineer will be supportive of the construction effort, you'll be much more likely to get a quality product at a reasonalbe price
Engineers do design, builders build.
Having the engineer running out to the site is going to get expensive; it is a rather inefficient use of his time & his going to what to get paid.
Consider having him establish "inspection milestones" such that they prevent problems rather than catching them
Other things to consider
how will design mistakes that the contractor finds be handled?
I disagree with 100% upon drawings. The building department has delegated all inspections to the engineer. I would agree that a large portion would be due and payable at the drawing stage after your permit maybe up to 80%. I would hold at least 20% until the final inspection from the city. Does you city require CFO's? certification of occupancy.
So does he. Tell him what you want, ask him what you need. It's always a good idea to have a contract written up. He'll have his standard contract and tailor it to your job. The drawings are usually paid for when they are delivered. The contract should spell out who is responsible for revisions required by the building department. You could make payment contingent on getting the permit, but that's kind of like strangling a horse to make it run faster. If he's done the work in good conscience, and the building department is making him jump through hoops because of your unusual (for residential) construction, he shouldn't be punished for it. It should also spell out the scheduling and number of inspections, or should list a fee for a site visit.
You're reinventing the wheel and he's already rolling, let him lead. The fact that you already feel comfortable with him is a major plus.
I guess I would call another engineer and ask him how it is handled. I guess the easiest time to do this was when you were talking to more than one engineer, but since you ddidn't do it then, you can still do it now. Either
a) call one of the ones you've dealt with, tell them the truth, ask if they will tell you anyhow.
b) if you haven't told them NO already, ask further questions to get answers to your questions above. (After all,you might still have a fight with the current engineer about this or something else, and you might still dump him and go back to the guy you are talking to, so if this previous guy was rasonably suited to do your job, it is reasonable to ask him more questions now.)
c) you can outright lie to some other engineer, or evade saying that you have just about hired someone else, ask him some basic questions, including the ones about how much in advance etc. You can call someone you already talked to and pretend to be someone else, or you can call someone you never talked to before. Either way, you don't want to waste much of their time, but again since you haven't actually settled on this guy (until the contract is signed, or money is paid, or both.) there is still a possibilty you will dump this guy and hire them.
Of course not only could someone ask for more than he is entitled to, someone who really needs a job might ask for less than the normal deal, might offer a better deal than is standard, like NO payment until plans fully approved. Don't let someone like that queer your deal with a guy who is only asking for what is normal.
I might also say that anyone who can build such a avant guarde house can hire a lawyer with experience in dealing with engineers, but I do think it is a good idea to come to places where contractors and regular people have dealt with engineers and get there opinions. That someone has maybe a lot of momey is no reason to give too much to lawyers, if the answer can be foudn more cheaply. And how would you find a good lawyer who has experience with engineers?
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Every engineer that I work with gets paid when he gives me the drawings. In the case of special inspections, he gets paid for each inspection when he does them. My favorite engineer just bills me each time he does something and I pay him when I get a draw for that item.
One thing that is in your favor, the inspection dept of your jurisdiction will defer to the engineer on anything. So, if he designs it, it is built like he drew it, and he inspects it, then it will be good with the city. I have yet to see an engineer not pass something that he designed.
Here is the schedule that you will probably pay:
Drawings paid upon completion. If something that he designed does not work, he should do the redesign and redrawing for free. If he has to redraw for a change order or anything else not his fault, it will cost extra.
Inspections will either be paid for after each inspection, or he may be paid a set amount for all required inspections (which will amount to the same money amount, but may be billed in groups,...i.e; concrete prepour, framing, etc.). Reinspections are the same as inspections. So make sure it is ready before you call him out.
For each inspection, there will be a letter written and stamped by him, for which you will have to pay. The price of this is usually, but not always, included in the cost of the inspection.
If possible, I try to get inspections grouped so that he can do two or more at one trip. Costs less that way.
You should find out what he requires for inspections, ie; can you call him and he will be out the next day, or does he need more notice. My favorite engineer will usually come out within 24 hours of my phone call. He has even been known to come out and inspect after hours in an emergency (emergencies are when I forget to call him soon enough and need an inspection quickly due to my own stupidity).
As to the suggestion to discuss this only with the engineer you're dealing with, I just don't see it. Most people are honest and much of the time a contract woudln't be needed, but when a contract is needed, it's because of a dispute of some sort with the other party.
Just discussing it with the other party, is sort fo like a girl asking a guy, Is it true I can't get pregnant the first time?
Or asking the guy you buy the house from, Does it have any problems, and relying on his answer alone.
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A contract is written beforehand to prevent disputes and provide procedures for settling disputes should they arise. You make it sound like the only time someone would need to have something written down is if they suspect there will be a problem down the road. That's not how it works. It's good business practice to have a contract.
The odds of an engineer designing a house for a new client, with inspections, and without having a written contract, are about zero.
I also don't understand your position from an earlier post in this thread. The OP feels comfortable with his engineer, yet you're advising that he make up stories to tell other engineers to find out what they do. That's a waste of time for everyone. There is no benefit. the engineer has done this all before and has a standard contract. If the OP has any questions about the engineer's contract, he should run it by a lawyer.
Well I forgot to mention I will be doing all of the labor except for the big herculian tasks like concrete pours and excavation. I'm even gonna fab the joists. This is my baby.
That was an important detail............owner / builder
you've got a good opportunity to build just like you want it & your engineer designed. If you understand the design & the dwgs you should have very little trouble getting this thing built per design.
Let me rephrase: Pay whenever and whatever the engineer says. In advance, at the drawing stage, 90 days after the work is completed, whatever the usual and customary terms are for engineering work in your community. The engineer will tell you. You are NOT going to get ripped - there are too many consequences for a professional engineer for him to engage in skullduggery.
Hi, You never know. I once hired a concrete contractor with good reputation. We did not know he had marital problem which lead to divorce. Then he was different person. Lien holdback on work completition is common practice. Tony
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