How does the typical mains power connect in the USA anyway?

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Did you nail the windows shut?
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On 11/27/2013 4:31 PM, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Didn't have to, after the freezing rain about that time of year. But, it sure is a good idea. And hide the hammer, so they don't bust out the glass.
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On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:58:04 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Come on. Everyone knows that a sine wave and it changes sign twice per cycle. ;-)
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On 11/27/13 4:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

And that reminds me of the song Signs by the Five Man Electrical Band.
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On 11/27/2013 5:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/o/V/C/sign-turn-left-hi.png
http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/images/icons/sign_icons/right_turn.png
http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/o/V/C/sign-turn-left-hi.png
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http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/o/V/C/sign-turn-left-hi.png
http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/images/icons/sign_icons/right_turn.png
http://www.clker.com/cliparts/3/0/C/o/V/C/sign-turn-left-hi.png
http://www.greenvalleyrecycling.ca/images/icons/sign_icons/right_turn.png
Like that?
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On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:02:11 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Nope. Not one sine to be seen. However, you did do a good job of feeding into Dean's post. ;-)
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On 11/27/2013 6:37 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

http://static.tumblr.com/tpf5hmn/Toalwj7ol/waving_gif.gif
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On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:52:07 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Cute sign, but not a sine to be seen.
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On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:21:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon

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On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:

Tell that to the IEEE power engineers:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees. "
Or these electrical eqpt manufacturers:
http://www.behlman.com/applications/AC%20basics.pdf
http://www.samlexamerica.com/support/documents/WhitePaper-120240VACSingleSp litPhaseandMultiWireBranchCircuits.pdf
I've asked 12 times now for those of you who claim you can't view split-phase as having two phases present to give your definition of "phase". It's pointless to claim anything when you can't define a simple engineering term.
Also see the other thread I started where I start out with 3 phase and morph it into 2 phases, indistinguishable fromm what you have in a 240/120V split phase service.
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On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:12:35 AM UTC-5, Ed wrote:

I think perhaps you did not read for comprehension.
I did not say it is two phase. I don't believe it is two phase. But clearly there is a phase relationship between part of the wire and another part, in that ON THE SAME WIRE some part of it is 180 degrees out of phase with another.
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On 11/27/2013 10:38 AM, TimR wrote:

Put the reference clip of a dual-trace oscilloscope on L1.
Put the probe for Trace A on the neutral/center tap.
Put the probe for Trace B on L2.
Here's what you'll see:
The scope will display 2 traces in phase sync with each other.
The only difference between traces will be that Trace B will be twice the amplitude of Trace A
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On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:10:11 PM UTC-5, Ed wrote:

art, in that ON THE SAME WIRE some part of it is 180 degrees out of phase w ith another.

The only problem with that is the accepted reference point for the system in question is the NEUTRAL/Ground. No one in their right mind would reference the scope to one of the hot legs.
Don't believe me about two phases, ask the IEEE ppower engineers, which is about as credible an authority on the subject as you can get:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."
Or see the seperate discussion I started where I start out with 3 phase, and show what phases are, how you can morph that step by step into split-phase using two of the three phases. It winds up identical to a 240/120V split phase service and one of the phases doesn't disappear.
BTW, still waiting for one of you alleged experts to define the term "phase" for me.
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On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:06:43 AM UTC-5, TimR wrote:

to imply a two phase supply, and that you can create an infinite number of phases with a multiple tap transformer.

wrong, but at least it's not confusing.

lbs in series, each with a resistance of 60 ohms. Total resistance is now 120 ohms so I should have 1 ampere of current flowing. If I measure the vo ltage across both bulbs I should have 120 volts; but if I measure from betw een the two light bulbs in either direction I will read 60 volts (and the b ulbs won't be all that bright). (but I don't care, I'm not going to read b y them; this is a thought experiment)

exception that I didn't ground the center of the lightbulb circuit.

"In my blissful ignorance I just always considered one line to be +120 volt s referenced to ground, and the other -120 volts. I'm pretty sure that's w rong, but at least it's not confusing."
It is wrong. And while it seems like it's not confusing, it is in fact con fusing you. Because AC is neither negative nor positive, it's both. It is - half the time and + the other half.
http://www.nooutage.com/images/s-1500output.gif
Your home power is 120vac between one line and neutral. If you use both ho ts the peaks of the sine waves are opposite each other. So that when one i s on the positive peak the other is on the negative peak. So the voltage i s 240vac.
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Close. The peaks are the same between L1 and L2 (X1 and X2). Positive, or negative.
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wrote:

No, he's not.

He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That just doesn't happen to any degree.

Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.

<Google groupie's mess unfolded>

It *IS* necessary.

Nope. You wouldn't have both 120 and 240 available.

Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.

I'm not sure what you're saying, now. You said the center-tapped transformer wasn't necessary. If you mean that only the ground bond from the center tap to ground was unnecessary, well, yeah, if you don't mind electrocution.

OK... (gotta see where this is going...)

OK, but why>

Of course not. Starting with one phase you can only have one phase. You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you want, though.

No, they're in phase, just like they are with the classical Edison connection. That's what Trader can't get through his skull.
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On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:04:48 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Of course it would work. You just would not have the transformer bonded to ground.

Apparently you not only can't read IEEE papers, you can't read what anyone said. He's clearly not talking about eliminating the neutral, he's only talking about not earthing it.

He never said that.
If you mean that only the ground bond

It only took you about 6 tries to get it right.

Now that is indeed a good question. He's taken a turn here that I don't think anyone can figure out.

The IEEE says you're wrong.
You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you

Funny thing, I have the IEEE agreeing with me. From a recent IEEE publishe d paper delivered at an IEEE conference of power engineers.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/articleDetails.jsp?reload=true&arnumber4520128
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."
Pay special attention to those last two sentences. And just in case you want to claim this is some lightweight engineer, here's a link to the multitude of IEEE papers he's authored:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?searchWithin=p_Authors :.QT.Kersting, W.H..QT.&newsearch=true
So, the IEEE is wrong too?
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On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 18:55:26 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

If you had no center tap, you certainly would not. One or the other, but not both.

You really are a dumbshit.
<more asinine Trader drivel snipped>
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On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 5:45:16 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

The poster never said "no center tap" or "no neutral". What he said was not having the NEUTRAL BONDED TO GROUND. But you'd rather hurl insults instead of reading what people actually write.

Here is what the poster said:
"The ground IS a parallel path for return, but most of the current will flo w along the neutral wire. The center tap of that transformer is bonded to ground. That gives us a ze ro reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would wor k fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 1 20. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of you r equipment and ground."
Again, he never said there is no center tap, no neutral. Only what would happen if the neutral was not bonded to ground.
Read and learn. He's right, you're wrong, yet again.

You mean asinine drivel like the IEEE power engineers agreeing 100% with me?
Or me asking for you to simply give us your definition of the term "phase"?
Are you as sure about all this as you were about it being illegal for employers to help pay for their employees Obamacare? Remember when you hurled insults and profanities at me and others here about that and you were dead wrong? How about when you argued about how a 4 wire vs 3 wire appliance connection works? You had Bud, RBM, me telling you that you had it wrong. You as sure about this as you were about those earlier embarrasments?
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On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:49:22 PM UTC-5, TimR wrote:

And how exactly is that? He claimed that the earth is used as the return path for delivering poser. That isn't anywhere close to being "almost right".

Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world loo k like to the power plant?

Why not?

ork fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of y our equipment and ground.

That is correct.

nal.

Now you've gone off the rails and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Somehow you're conflating too seperate discussions here. One is the concept of the phases present in a split-phase service. The other is whether the earth is a return path used for power delivery. The two have nothing to do with each other.
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