Gasoline Storage

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Hi,
What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators?
I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 days without power.
Here's my solution, but I don't like it: I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning about late November through February. They're all in proper containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc..
I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a business. Have two cars, which hold plenty of fuel, but ... no way to get the gas out of them. Siphoning is impossible these days.
My next generator's going to be a diesel! I know how to pump fuel oil from my furnaces! But what about right now?
TIA,
Pop
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Maybe your local Fire Marshal could provide suggestions, as could a local contractor specializing in storage for institutions that might store a few hundred gallons.
It seems desirable to isolate the fuel from heat of fire (underground) and with safe venting to prevent pressure buildup. Then a hand-pump would transfer to containers. I've seen such a package installed to Fire Marshal's satisfaction in CT. The tank had to be coated to his satisfaction, inside & out, and he wanted to see about a foot of round-sand next to the tank- even had it partly dug out after the fact to be certain.
With kerosene, he had no problem with storage in barrels above ground. Looks like diesel it is, on first-cost basis alone, for many.
J
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: Maybe your local Fire Marshal could provide suggestions, as could a : local contractor specializing in storage for institutions that might : store a few hundred gallons. : : It seems desirable to isolate the fuel from heat of fire (underground) : and with safe venting to prevent pressure buildup. Then a hand-pump : would transfer to containers. I've seen such a package installed to : Fire Marshal's satisfaction in CT. The tank had to be coated to his : satisfaction, inside & out, and he wanted to see about a foot of : round-sand next to the tank- even had it partly dug out after the fact : to be certain. : : With kerosene, he had no problem with storage in barrels above ground. : Looks like diesel it is, on first-cost basis alone, for many.
Makes lots of sense; I do plan on talking to the fire dept again. It's been a couple years and at that time I just wanted to be sure they'd be OK with my having the gasoline around in that quantity. Oh, and I already have the trench/sand/gravel moat, BTW. It'll drain out into an empty field if fire ever does open any of those containers. It was easy to do at the time, so ... .
Pop
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Thats not so bad; I was 10 days from the 91 ice storm and 6 days from the 98 wind storm. But we rarely have a short outage.

a shelf in my garage. A real inflamable cabinet would be a good upgrade (for either of us). I see them at auctions for reasonable prices every now and then but can't justify the room they take up.

It is easy enough to register as a business; if that would be enough. Get a tax certificate and all that. (means you have to file quarterly, even if you don't actually do any business...) You could be Pop's snow plowing, and then just never get around to doing it.

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Actually, you don't have to file quarterly, and the IRS will not normally do anything about it. If you file an honest return and pay on time, that's all they care about. For 15 years we would just send the money in with our return. We finally decided that it was easier to come up with the money quarterly, so now we do it that way.

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I had to file quarterly for the state for the taxes when I lived in PA. If no activity, it was a 15 second report.
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Same thing in NY.
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Years ago, I asked the PA Dept. of Revenue about sales tax. They told me I was not required to collect sales tax on anything I install, as long as I pay sales tax on an item when I buy it.

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tax exempt certificates when buying supplies. My theory is that the customer is buying the supplies and reimbursing me for them; I am only selling my labor and profit.
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Only one person has to pay sales tax, either the middle man or the final consumer. If the middle man doesn't want to pay sales tax, he has to get a resale permit, collect the tax on anything that would be sales-taxable, and pay that money to the appropriate state agency.
Wholesalers shouldn't sell things to anyone without collecting sales tax, unless they have seen the buyer's permit, have recorded his permit number, and he is not buying things to use for himself, but to resell.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
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: > Hi, : > : > What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : > : > I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : > multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : > the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : > days without power. : : Thats not so bad; I was 10 days from the 91 ice storm and 6 days from the 98 : wind storm. But we rarely have a short outage. : > : > Here's my solution, but I don't like it: : > I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning : > about late November through February. They're all in proper : > containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for : > the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway : > for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, : > no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting : > around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know : > I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the : > garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate : > into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion : > lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc.. : > : That seems quite reasonable; I just have 3-2 gallon plastic cans sitting on : a shelf in my garage. : A real inflamable cabinet would be a good upgrade (for either of us). I see : them at auctions for reasonable prices every now and then but can't justify : the room they take up. : : > I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a : > business. : : It is easy enough to register as a business; if that would be enough. Get a : tax certificate and all that. (means you have to file quarterly, even if : you don't actually do any business...) You could be Pop's snow plowing, and : then just never get around to doing it.
Actually, that is a problem for me. I am disabled and starting a business, even just on paper as a sole proprietor, would look pretty bad to the "powers that be" (read as gummint critters). They'd be all over me for SGA, taxes and all kinds of things, looking to take it away from me. <rant> I committed murder for them, and they'd "murder" me just as fast as we did the gooks; there's nothing fair about our government and they're only there when you don't need them. </rant>
Pop
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Pop wrote:

have to prove that you use the gas off road. Thirty gallons a year isn't going to save enough in gas taxes for the trouble.
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What's the question? Are you concerned about the durability of the containers? If that's the issue, head over to marina in A-Bay or Lake George or whatever's nearest, and replace the containers with the type made for boats. They tend to be much more rugged. Add a little gas preservative to each container. And, even with the preservative, rotate your inventory. Pour one container into the car every month and refill the container. Then, move on to the next container.
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Convert the generator to run on natural gas or propane;you can use the gas lines that run your home heating,or the kitchen stove/oven. Even when electric power is lost,you still get gas. A fair sized propane tank will run a generator a long time,probably longer than it should run continuously. And it's safer because you do not have to refuel a hot generator.
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Jim Yanik
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I have a Winco multi-fuel generator that operates on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. It uses 9/10 gallon gasoline per hour or 1.4 gallons propane per hour. I never tried it on natural gas, but Winco said it will use about 100 cubic ft. per hour, but will only deliver about 80% output. It has a really unique carburetor, but at least it gives the option of still using gasoline.

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Is the propane or NG less expensive than gasoline? IIRC,NG is not expensive. It's cleaner,better for your generator engine,and with a underground gas line,nearly uninterruptable supply,and also no storage or handling problems.
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: >> Hi, : >> : >> What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : >> : >> I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : >> multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : >> the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : >> days without power. : >> : : : : Convert the generator to run on natural gas or propane;you can use the gas : lines that run your home heating,or the kitchen stove/oven. : Even when electric power is lost,you still get gas. : A fair sized propane tank will run a generator a long time,probably longer : than it should run continuously. : And it's safer because you do not have to refuel a hot generator.
That's a good thought, but I know zero about propane conversions. Is it a diy if one has any experience at all? How would I go about finding out more about converting? Any thoughts? Other than Google, I mean; I'll be going there shortly but no idea yet what to search for.Yet.
Any idea of the pros/cons? Especially starting in very cold weather? The genset isn't permanently mounted; it's a roll-out to the site when needed kind of thing. Hit the start button, plug it in, and flip the transfer switch; I'd want to keep that ease of use.
Thanks for the thoughts; appreciations.
Pop
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Back in the 70s during the energy crisis, I had a locked 165 gal. tank near the house. There was a lot of loss from evaporation, so I got another tank, filled them both 3/4 full and put 2" iron pipe plugs in them. They made noise when they expanded and contracted, but by leaving enough room, there was no danger. If a local company won't deliver a tank and fill it, then buy your own tank and bring the gas home. I took a Texaco fuel and motor oil once, and the instructor said that if a tank is clean and sealed, gas will remain good for years. The other option would be to get a diesel generator.

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Bob wrote:

Right, but the simple solution based on the amount of gas he has is to use a 55 gallon barrel. And you are right, you want the tank sealed, not open and giving off fumes as some suggest. If a 55 g drum can't take the pressure changes from weather changes (not in the sun) then it is a poor drum indeed.
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