Gasoline Storage

Hi,

What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators?

I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 days without power.

Here's my solution, but I don't like it: I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning about late November through February. They're all in proper containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc..

I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a business. Have two cars, which hold plenty of fuel, but ... no way to get the gas out of them. Siphoning is impossible these days.

My next generator's going to be a diesel! I know how to pump fuel oil from my furnaces! But what about right now?

TIA,

Pop

Reply to
Pop
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Maybe your local Fire Marshal could provide suggestions, as could a local contractor specializing in storage for institutions that might store a few hundred gallons.

It seems desirable to isolate the fuel from heat of fire (underground) and with safe venting to prevent pressure buildup. Then a hand-pump would transfer to containers. I've seen such a package installed to Fire Marshal's satisfaction in CT. The tank had to be coated to his satisfaction, inside & out, and he wanted to see about a foot of round-sand next to the tank- even had it partly dug out after the fact to be certain.

With kerosene, he had no problem with storage in barrels above ground. Looks like diesel it is, on first-cost basis alone, for many.

J
Reply to
barry

Thats not so bad; I was 10 days from the 91 ice storm and 6 days from the 98 wind storm. But we rarely have a short outage.

That seems quite reasonable; I just have 3-2 gallon plastic cans sitting on a shelf in my garage. A real inflamable cabinet would be a good upgrade (for either of us). I see them at auctions for reasonable prices every now and then but can't justify the room they take up.

It is easy enough to register as a business; if that would be enough. Get a tax certificate and all that. (means you have to file quarterly, even if you don't actually do any business...) You could be Pop's snow plowing, and then just never get around to doing it.

Reply to
Toller

What's the question? Are you concerned about the durability of the containers? If that's the issue, head over to marina in A-Bay or Lake George or whatever's nearest, and replace the containers with the type made for boats. They tend to be much more rugged. Add a little gas preservative to each container. And, even with the preservative, rotate your inventory. Pour one container into the car every month and refill the container. Then, move on to the next container.

Reply to
Doug Kanter

Back in the 70s during the energy crisis, I had a locked 165 gal. tank near the house. There was a lot of loss from evaporation, so I got another tank, filled them both 3/4 full and put 2" iron pipe plugs in them. They made noise when they expanded and contracted, but by leaving enough room, there was no danger. If a local company won't deliver a tank and fill it, then buy your own tank and bring the gas home. I took a Texaco fuel and motor oil once, and the instructor said that if a tank is clean and sealed, gas will remain good for years. The other option would be to get a diesel generator.

Reply to
Bob

Actually, you don't have to file quarterly, and the IRS will not normally do anything about it. If you file an honest return and pay on time, that's all they care about. For 15 years we would just send the money in with our return. We finally decided that it was easier to come up with the money quarterly, so now we do it that way.

Reply to
Bob

I had to file quarterly for the state for the taxes when I lived in PA. If no activity, it was a 15 second report.

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

Same thing in NY.

Reply to
Doug Kanter

Not the IRS; NYS sales tax.

Reply to
Toller

"Doug Kanter" wrote in news:qLKDf.22110$ snipped-for-privacy@news02.roc.ny:

Convert the generator to run on natural gas or propane;you can use the gas lines that run your home heating,or the kitchen stove/oven. Even when electric power is lost,you still get gas. A fair sized propane tank will run a generator a long time,probably longer than it should run continuously. And it's safer because you do not have to refuel a hot generator.

Reply to
Jim Yanik

Years ago, I asked the PA Dept. of Revenue about sales tax. They told me I was not required to collect sales tax on anything I install, as long as I pay sales tax on an item when I buy it.

Reply to
Bob

I have a Winco multi-fuel generator that operates on gasoline, propane, or natural gas. It uses 9/10 gallon gasoline per hour or 1.4 gallons propane per hour. I never tried it on natural gas, but Winco said it will use about

100 cubic ft. per hour, but will only deliver about 80% output. It has a really unique carburetor, but at least it gives the option of still using gasoline.

Reply to
Bob

Do it like most small time farmers/ranchers. Fill a 55 gallon drum, that you can roll or raise to a convenient height (drum horizontal). You can even build a cage with an inner sliding part that you raise a foot at a time with a hydraulic car jack.

The drum would have a locking tap on the downside opening with the other opening up. Whenever you want gas you unscrew the top opening to allow air to enter, then fill whatever you want from the tap. Add a hose and get the barrel high enough and you can fill the vehicles. Probably want to use up all the extra gas and empty the empty the barrel once a year.

All those proper containers are a hazard. Much better and safer to store a large amount altogether in an air tight container.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

Right, but the simple solution based on the amount of gas he has is to use a 55 gallon barrel. And you are right, you want the tank sealed, not open and giving off fumes as some suggest. If a 55 g drum can't take the pressure changes from weather changes (not in the sun) then it is a poor drum indeed.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

First I would consider moving to the natural gas/propane approach as fuel, some exiting engines could be fitted with the type of carburetor needed.

If that is not an option then next I would go with diesel as can be stored much safer.

However weather diesel or Gas, I would go with a more durable and larger container for keeping that amount on hand.

On our farm we used to have permanent tanks, We had to replace the tanks once and the supplier said would need to now have EPA approved installation, etc. We did not want to go through the expense of that. The supplier told us that anything not a permanent fixture would not necessarily need to be approved by the EPA. Many construction companies use portable tanks to take to job sites. So we got a small heavy duty trailer and mounted a small 100 Gal tank and then pulled down to the supplier to have filled instead of them coming out to us. Worked out better since when on one side of the property for a while we could take the tank with us.

May be an option, would still depend on laws in your area, May can get a

55 gal drum that would be adequate and strap down on a suitable utility trailer if you have means to tow somewhere to fill (Even the local gas station)
Reply to
MC

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message news:TcQDf.579366$ snipped-for-privacy@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... : Pop wrote: : > Hi, : >

: > What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : >

: > I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : > multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : > the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : > days without power. : >

: > Here's my solution, but I don't like it: : > I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning : > about late November through February. They're all in proper : > containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for : > the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway : > for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, : > no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting : > around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know : > I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the : > garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate : > into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion : > lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc.. : >

: > I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a : > business. : > Have two cars, which hold plenty of fuel, but ... no way to get : > the gas out of them. Siphoning is impossible these days. : >

: > My next generator's going to be a diesel! I know how to pump : > fuel oil from my furnaces! But what about right now? : >

: > TIA, : >

: > Pop : >

: >

: : Do it like most small time farmers/ranchers. Fill : a 55 gallon drum, that you can roll or raise to a : convenient height (drum horizontal). You can even : build a cage with an inner sliding part that : you raise a foot at a time with a hydraulic car jack. : : The drum would have a locking tap on the downside : opening with the other opening up. Whenever you : want gas you unscrew the top opening to allow air : to enter, then fill whatever you want from the : tap. Add a hose and get the barrel high enough : and you can fill the vehicles. Probably want to : use up all the extra gas and empty the empty the : barrel once a year. : : All those proper containers are a hazard. Much : better and safer to store a large amount : altogether in an air tight container.

Hmm, I like that actually, if it's allowable here; think I'll check that out further.

Couple questions: Why do you say the several containers are a hazard? I don't want several containers, but curious why they're more hazardous than a drum? How do you control moisture inside the tank? Wouldn't it have to be kep mostly full year 'round to keep moisture from becoming a problem? Still thinking about moisture: How would one know the drum they are getting wasn't going to rust inside? Outside you paint & care for, but regular 55 gal drums are relatively thin metal, are they not? If it were you, where would you source the drum from? I have a few in the cellar that i keep drinking water in, that stay fine inside, but ... dunno what would happen if they contained gasoline.

I don't see any problem with gas getting stale; as long as it's kept in closed containers it'll last 6 months easy, and right now in the spring I just start using up the winter gas in the lawn tractor, weed eater, etc etc etc.. So that part doesn't worry me too much; it's fairly easy to keep a turn-over going. Especially if I could easily dump it into the car too.

Hmm, I'll bet a propane tank would work too, wouldn't it? Maybe even two of them. Certainly no problem with tank expansion/collapse in the changeing temps and all that - and they could even be lightly pressurized with moisture-free (well, filtered anyway) compressed air, to act as a pump of sorts. I keep envisioning a drum collapsing after a heat wave followed by a few cold nights . Well, that pressurizing might not be practical, but the rest bears some thinking about.

Thanks - helps to discuss things with others. Sort of like brainstorming; brings out new thoughts.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

: >> What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : >>

: >> I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : >> multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : >> the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : >> days without power. : >>

: : : : Convert the generator to run on natural gas or propane;you can use the gas : lines that run your home heating,or the kitchen stove/oven. : Even when electric power is lost,you still get gas. : A fair sized propane tank will run a generator a long time,probably longer : than it should run continuously. : And it's safer because you do not have to refuel a hot generator.

That's a good thought, but I know zero about propane conversions. Is it a diy if one has any experience at all? How would I go about finding out more about converting? Any thoughts? Other than Google, I mean; I'll be going there shortly but no idea yet what to search for.Yet.

Any idea of the pros/cons? Especially starting in very cold weather? The genset isn't permanently mounted; it's a roll-out to the site when needed kind of thing. Hit the start button, plug it in, and flip the transfer switch; I'd want to keep that ease of use.

Thanks for the thoughts; appreciations.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

: > What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : >

: > I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : > multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : > the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : > days without power. : : Thats not so bad; I was 10 days from the 91 ice storm and 6 days from the 98 : wind storm. But we rarely have a short outage. : >

: > Here's my solution, but I don't like it: : > I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning : > about late November through February. They're all in proper : > containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for : > the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway : > for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, : > no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting : > around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know : > I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the : > garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate : > into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion : > lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc.. : >

: That seems quite reasonable; I just have 3-2 gallon plastic cans sitting on : a shelf in my garage. : A real inflamable cabinet would be a good upgrade (for either of us). I see : them at auctions for reasonable prices every now and then but can't justify : the room they take up. : : > I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a : > business. : : It is easy enough to register as a business; if that would be enough. Get a : tax certificate and all that. (means you have to file quarterly, even if : you don't actually do any business...) You could be Pop's snow plowing, and : then just never get around to doing it.

Actually, that is a problem for me. I am disabled and starting a business, even just on paper as a sole proprietor, would look pretty bad to the "powers that be" (read as gummint critters). They'd be all over me for SGA, taxes and all kinds of things, looking to take it away from me. I committed murder for them, and they'd "murder" me just as fast as we did the gooks; there's nothing fair about our government and they're only there when you don't need them.

Pop

Reply to
Pop

Makes lots of sense; I do plan on talking to the fire dept again. It's been a couple years and at that time I just wanted to be sure they'd be OK with my having the gasoline around in that quantity. Oh, and I already have the trench/sand/gravel moat, BTW. It'll drain out into an empty field if fire ever does open any of those containers. It was easy to do at the time, so ... .

Pop

Reply to
Pop

I hope NYS agrees with you, because I have done that rather than mess with tax exempt certificates when buying supplies. My theory is that the customer is buying the supplies and reimbursing me for them; I am only selling my labor and profit.

Reply to
Toller

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