Furnace maintenance

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I need detailed instructions for cleaning and maintaining my furnace. It is a 25 year old giesel and still runs good, and I want to keep it that way.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

If you really want to have a *safe* well operating furance, call you local HVAC expert. It won't be expensive. Probalby less than $100 including the filter.
In some area's you can call your local Gas Supplier who will perform a cursive inspection and check to be sure it is safe to operate for free.
What all needs to be specifically done to *your* furance, I don't know. [Depends how old it is and the type.]
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Zyp



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You still need remedial Reading Lessons stay at SCHOOL for another year or so
wrote:

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You must like high utility bills.
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"You must like high utility bills."
yeah like what ? 55- 60 % efficiency ?
new 90 plus would pay for itself in five years
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The Freon Cowboy wrote:

That analysis can only be done based on facts like the number of degree days involved and the local price of furnaces.

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Tis a giesel,110000btu, about 30000 overkill, nat gas forced air, with spacegar 2200 and humidifier. Installed by local Geisel dealer in 1982.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote in wrote in message

What approximate part of the country and what R-value insulation, what & how many windows? Lot's of stuff involved.
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On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:16:35 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

A. You are in way over your head.
B. If it's 25 years old you are giving the utility company free money every time you run it.
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OLDHVACDUDE wrote:

I see statements like that here all the time. Without context, they're misleading or false. Where I live, we use the furnace a couple of dozen days a year. Almost no matter how inefficient, it is uneconomical to replace a furnace before it breaks or becomes unsafe. There are (cooler) places where similar analysis can be performed on replacing air conditioners.
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However, his statement *is* still correct. :-)
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

... but misleading, in that it implies there's a better alternative.
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Actually the statement that he's giving the utility company free money because he has a 25 year old furnace isn't correct. Smitty Two already pointed that out. Sure, he's using more fuel than if he had a new 90+% furnace, but that doesn't equate to giving the utiltiy company free money. He's getting gas in return.
Here's a classic web example as far as wrong headed thinking on the cost effectiveness of energy savings:
http://home.howstuffworks.com/how-to-save-money-on-home-efficiency.htm "Here's an example: If your refrigerator is 15 years old or older, replacing it with a new one could reduce your energy bill by five dollars or more every month: 60 dollars a year. If that new refrigerator costs $600, you're getting a 10 percent return on your money -- much more than banks are paying on savings, checking accounts, or even certificates of deposit. And the extra bonus is that money "earned" on energy savings isn't subject to state or federal income tax. A 10 percent, tax-free return on a moderate investment? That beats leaving potentially savings-producing money like this in a bank account (where returns are low -- and also taxed)."
Now what's wrong with that analysis? While factoring in alternative investment rates and even tax issues, It completely ignores the fact that money in the bank, while earning interest, IS STILL THERE. The money spent on a new refrigerator is gone. To figure the cost effectiveness, you obviously have to factor in not only the energy savings, but also the depreciated cost over time of the new refrigerator. And last time I checked, you don't get much of a refrigerator for $600.
So, I agree with those saying you have to factor in a lot before you say a 25 year old furnace should be replaced for economic reasons. If it's gas, I don't buy that a 1982 furnace is only 55% efficient. I would bet if it's been maintained and adjusted correctly, it's closer to 80%. And if you live in an area with modest heating usage, it's still working OK, etc, it's not clear to me that you come out ahead by replacing it.
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On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:17:04 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

and the problem with your analysis is this: If your bill averages 100 dollars a month over an entire year and you put a new system in and your bill goes down to say 70 dollars a month that's 30 dollars a month that you were giving the utility comapny that you did not have to. Since the average life expectancy of a heating and air system is 15 t0 20 years you are saving between 5400.00 and 7200.00. Furthermore, if you took 5400.00 dollars and invested it in a 5 percent money market fund you actually realize 11,226.00 over the 15 year life of the system or 14,327.00 over 20 years due to the magic of compound interest. Further, lets say your money market fund gets taxed at 30 percent, you still come out ahead at 7859.00 at 15 years or 10,029 at 20 years. So, as I said, your are giving the utility company free money, period.
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On Sep 9, 1:11 pm, OLDHVACDUDE wrote:

Excuse me? Problem with my analysis? I didn't attempt to make a complete analysis of the economics in the refrigerator, only point out the most obvious flaw in the website analysis that completely ingnored the initial outlay for the new refrigerator. You are correct that you can refine the analysis further, by including compound interest, which only makes it look worse.
However, now that you want to go deeper into analysis, there are some very big flaws in your analysis. You're saying you save $5400 in energy cost over 15 years. You then take that amount and say it turns into $11K if invested over 15 years. WRONG. Because the savings of $5400 isn't available on day 1. It only becomes available at the rate of $30 a month. At the end of the first year, there is only a little over $360 in your bank account. So, to follow your analysis, the correct comparison is to see how much you have at the end of 15 years if you put $30 a month away to earn interest. And at 5%, that is $8k. And then if you want to factor in taxes, you have to pay tax on it each year, not at the end of 15 years. That reduces the amount at 15 years to $7K. Oh, and then factor in the present value of money. Which is to say, your $7k savings at the end of 15 years needs to be discounted back to today to account for inflation. Because surely you don't think $7k in 2022 is going to be equivalent to $7K today. Assuming a modest rate of inflation of 3%, that $7K in 2022 is equivalent to a mere $4400 today. Now compare that to the cost of the new furnace. Hmmm, doesn't look quite as good anymore, does it?
And then you completely ignore the other side of the balance sheet, assuming the guy has cash sitting around to pay for the new furnace or put in the bank. How about if he takes out a home equity loan at 8% to pay for it? Or some other financing at an even higher rate? I also see no reason to believe that a 25 year old gas furnace that is in good shape is going to result in 30% lower gas bills. Furnaces were generally 80% efficient in the 80s. You can get a 90 to 93% one now. That equates to a savings of about 14%, not 30%. Uh, oh, now run the above numbers and you're not ahead anymore, you're in the hole because your 15 year savings are now less than half of what they were at 30% or around $2K. Think you can get a 90+% system installed for $2K?
Oh, and we haven't even factored in the technology involved to get the 93% have we? What happens when one of the widgets that high efficiency furnace has fails, that the old one doesn;t have, so it can't fail? In other words, very likely higher maintenance costs.
Bottom line, there is no one right or wrong answer. A hell of a lot depends on how much his heating system is used, depending on where he lives, how he finances it, etc.
However how does any of that equate to giving the utility company free money? You are buying gas or electric from the utility company. The utility company has to get this gas or electricity from somewhere and pay for it, don't they? So, how is it "free money" to the utility company? You can certainly say that you're paying more for energy than you would with a higher efficiency furnace, but how that translates into "free money", makes no sense.
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On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 11:22:58 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Well lets assume that both of the analysis are wrong. You still are giving the utility company free money if you are using a 25 year old furnace. There is no way it is at 80 percent effeincy, no way.
My company guarntees that on a system that old your utility bills will decrease by 50 percent on the average over a year. If we tell you it will and it does'nt then we give you the system for free, period.
I've ran that offer for five years now and NEVER given away a system, NEVER. Without fail the bill decreases by at least 50 percent. Why? Because we give that offer on a 93 AFUE , 2 stage, variable speed furnace coupled with a 19 seer condenser and coil. Then we do a manual J load calculation to insure the system is sized correctly and we couple that with with a manual D duct calculation to insure the duct work is sized correctly. Next, because we are in Calfornia we do a title 24 duct test and insure that the duct work leaks less than 15 percent. Lastly you are required by us to have double pane windows and a minimum of R32 insulation.
If you want anything other than that, then the offer of a free system and a 50 percent savings on your utilities is off the table. Most people go with the free system offer. For what it's worth, here is what you get:
Trane XV90I Furnace, Trane XL19I condenser with ARI matching Evaporator coil, 10 year part and labor warranty, Load calculation, Duct Calculation, Title 24 compliance, all permits pulled, replace disconnect and breaker if required, replace condenser pad if required, replace lineset if required, replace flue and condensate if required, cart all the junk away and leave your property like we found it. You get all of this for 8,769.00. Roof top units are slightly more because of the requirment for a crane.
In addition, Trane often offers rebates as well as the local utility company. You can't beat the price unless you hire a one man band or a hack that will be gone in a year.
Bottom line, if you want to keep running that 25 year old system then by all means, don't let us stop you. Just know that you can do a hell of a lot better.
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On Sep 9, 5:18 pm, OLDHVACDUDE wrote:

No, only your analysis is wrong, as I demonstated to you. I made no complete analysis, until you came up with one that was obviously bogus. Take all the savings for the next 15 years that will only come in slowly, and assume you have them all day one, upfront, and put it in the bank. Total BS.
You still are

You need to get a better command of the English language. What exactly is your definition of "free money"? Is it free to the utility company? No, they provide gas for the money. Is it free to the payer? I don't think so, that person presumably worked for the money, so it's hardly free. But it is a nice marketing phrase, that you;ve obviously bought into.

50% savings? Sorry, but it's total BS. But at least now we know we're your coming from, which is to sell new systems.

Not surprised, because usually the terms and conditons of such an offer are next to impossible to meet.
Without fail the bill decreases by at least 50 percent. Why?

Oh, I see now the fine print comes out. Were we talking about an AC system in this thread? Or just a furnace? And now we have to buy a 93% furnace AND a 19 SEER AC. Hmmm, how much exactly does said system cost? How about if I live in a moderate climate?
Most

Bottom line, you have something to sell. The OP didn't have an AC. He has a 25 year old furnace. I'd like to see where someone automatically comes out ahead by switching from a 1980s vintage gas furnace that is working fine, to a new higher efficiency system, regardless of what climate the system is located in.
You didn't even bother to ask that, did you, before you went into sell mode with "free money"
What total BS,
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On Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:43:25 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You're either a troll or an idiot, I haven't quite figured it out yet. Either way, you're not the sharpest pencil in the box. To date I have sold over a thousand systems that I described. You can believe me or not, I really don't care. Now go fuck yourself asshole.
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OLDHVACDUDE wrote in wrote:

Look at the payout numbers. By your logic a person should pay you to avoid paying the utility company. Not exactly the correct economic decision there now is it?
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