I'd be less concerned with whether the insurance company would pay and more concerned with whether the house might burn down. If you do stuff correctly, whether it is to code or not, you won't need insurance to fix it. Correctly has nothing to do with code. For a stove installation, the primary concern should be that the closest surfaces don't get hot, not hot enough to burn, just not hot, like no more than hand touch warm. There are a lot of ways to do that and most probably violate code. The second thing you need to do is burn the stove correctly and clean the chimney often.
Yes "needing a permit or not" varies in different parts of the country. I think in some remote areas, there is no building inspection whatsoever.
But it is good to still good do things to code if possible. Building codes are based on accidents which have happened in the past, and are designed to protect life and property. And that is *your* life and property they are designed to protect BTW...
What would you do if you were just building a deck, the same size all the neighbors' new ones are, 12'x12', two feet off the ground, and you were expanding the basement with a new 12x12 room right under the deck?
Permit or no?
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Where do you live and how close are the neighbors? Too visible and big enough project and easy to get caught in most places, but out in the country, I'd just do it. . I'd go for the permit in town. OTOH, when I took down my 10 x 12 deck and put up a 12 x 16, no permit. I just figured it was a repair.
Well the permit requirements I referred to was a local city, the little bourgh I live in just required all electrical work be performed per the accepted NEC.
As for the window resizing, I don't think my little bourgh would require a permit for that. A little secret I've learned, most permits might be based on some 'safety' issue, but many towns use it as a mean to keep track of improvements and raise individual taxes. Oh my I said it, the secret is out. ;)
Now, anothe thing as a contractor, the permit requirements here have teh contractor tasked with the responsiblity of obtaining the needed permits. So, I'm curious why as a home owner you HAD to ask.
On 11/03/05 09:22 am The Real Tom tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:
I didn't know whose responsibility it was to obtain the permit, so I asked the contractor, thinking that perhaps *I* would have to get it and that any permit fee might be in addition to the price I had been quoted for the job.
I used to think it was a combination of safety and taxes. Not as much anymore.
Watch "Holmes on Homes" sometime[+].
Permits/inspections are primarily a method by which you the homeowner doesn't get screwed by sloppy/incompetent/unethical contractors.
In most areas, anything more complicated than simple redecorating needs permits (unless there's specific exemptions for it).
If the contractor says "you don't need a permit to add a new room" for example, you'd better trust him a lot, because if he screws up, you're screwed too.
Holmes says "if he says a permit isn't necessary, _run_!".
Holmes periodically has examples where the contractor said "no permit is needed" (or lie and say "one's on the way"), they botch the job thoroughly, and when you start trying to get the contractor to fix it, they report you to the municipality for not getting a permit.
The definition of chutzpah...
Think of a permit as an insurance policy. It doesn't ALWAYS protect you, but, especially if you're not familiar with proper building techniques, it has a very good chance of catching something wrong before it becomes a major disaster that costs more to fix than the original job cost in the first place.
Unethical contractors will obviously prefer you didn't get a permit, figuring that they won't get caught for poor workmanship.
It isn't even necessarily unethical ones. Contractors have their strengths and weaknesses. One that can build a good house may suck at foundations.
There are times where I understand the work to be done well enough (especially if I'm doing it myself) that I can identify a good job, and I don't think I need a permit. But if it's something I'm not competent enough to inspect it properly myself, I'll insist on a permit.
[+] Mike Holmes is a Toronto-based contractor who has a TV show on HGTV and a few other stations. His show is all about the disasters contractors make, and their consequences. A fascinating show. We've had our own "Holmes moments" while renovating our bathroom (plumber practically severed two adjacent joists to put a drain in, the tub shutoff valves were hidden behind a "permanent" plywood wall. I'm having to sister lumber in to reinforce the joists, and the shutoff valves will be behind a door). The irony being that the plumber who did the plumbing was building the house for himself...
[Holmes has been responsible for several contractors losing their licenses and even one or two arrests for out-and-out fraud.]
It depends on the town, the town rules, and the town established practice.
Seems there is some grey area. In my town, since you're adding a room under the deck, and building a new deck (even if it's like your neighbors', it's new to your house), you'd definitely hear from the town if they noticed. You'd want a COO for the lower-floor room - no? The previous owners of my house had to scramble to get the three-season porch on my house accounted for when they put the house on the market - it had been built without permit, should have been.
It seems around here the dividing line is - fix or replace, no permit; add on or anything significantly structurally changing, permit needed. The grey area being replacing vs. upgrading.
There was no permit for my foundation repair. Engineer thought it was optional, contractor didn't think it was needed. But wouldln't you know the town was re-assessing and the photogs came around in the middle of the excavation! Heh. No one said anything; my neighbor reported the town came back to take more pictures after the job was done, that's been the end of it. I'll check with the town eventually, but I think it was just documented that there was no addition to account for.
On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 18:25:29 -0800, "Bill" scribbled this interesting note:
Which is why we did exactly that. Rebuild to code. Everything from sealing up the holes in the top and bottom plates where wires and pipes go through, to nail guards, to insulation, to the electrical repairs. All done to code.
-- John Willis snipped-for-privacy@airmail.net (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)
I live in a townhouse at the end of one building that has 8 townhouses, in the near suburbs..
You're saying they might turn me in for the deck alone! Everyone but me has gotten a new deck, and I don't think they will think of that.
The HOA approved my new deck, although that was before the new neighbors moved in. But it's the same side as theirs, and I don't see a problem.
But I'm probably going to have someone pour the basement walls, or at least I'll have to rent an excavator. Again I think my neighbors mind their own business, but who knows.
I guess I am going to have the concrete delivered. People will notice, but because there are so many neighbors, everyone will think someone else is making sure I have a permit.
The work will be up to code.
That seems fair to me. I'm replacing a 12 x 5 deck. I would go to 12 x16, and have a bigger basement room too, except there would be little left of my back yard.
The new room is just for storage. There won't be any electricity in it except for a ceiling light and one receptacle.
I wanted to start building this next spring.
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How do you know they all didn't get permits for their decks?
Really - for this, I'd check with the town. I'm not saying one has to get permits for everyting (see my other post), but what do you gain by not getting a permit, especially for that extension you're putting in?
??
It's not a matter of placating evul-meenie neighbors, it's a matter of needing to document that your *addition* is structurally sound.
Say something happens at the site, or the excavation is really sloppy. The neighbors complain about that - not to be evul meenies and turn you in - just that they don't care for the backhoe tearing up a part of their yard, and the town discovers the work? Can you say "stop work order"?
I'd just get the permit if your municipality requires it. What do you lose?
All Electrical work in my area is supposed to be permitted and inspected. I've always gotten permits for new service installations, but for a simple outlet addition, minor circuit modification, or "maintenance" (i.e. replacing a light or outlet), I wouldn't waste my time or theirs. Of course, I always make sure my work is up to code or better, regardless of whether I obtain a permit.
As for building permits, our local building department has a web site that details when a permit is needed:
----- Any residential non-structural project valued under $1,500 does not require a building permit. However, mechanical (heating, ventilating) and plumbing alterations or additions require a permit from the first dollar of value. Just because a permit may not be needed for your project, there are still minimum standards of quality which apply. For example, if you replace your old windows with new double or triple-glazed windows, you will not need a building permit as long as the value of the project doesn't exceed $1,500 and there are no structural changes to the residence. However, the windows and installation must still meet energy code requirements for new window installations. If you are employing a contractor to build your project, you'll need to include the contractor's charges when determining whether or not you meet the $1,500 threshold.
Building permits are not required for the construction or alteration of agricultural buildings. However, mechanical (heating, ventilating) and plumbing alterations or additions require a permit from the first dollar of value. To qualify as an agricultural building, the use of the structure must be limited to storage of feed, agricultural equipment such as tractors, and the housing of animals. If you park your recreational vehicle or personal vehicles in the building, it no longer qualifies as an agricultural building. While permits are not needed for these buildings, there are still zoning regulations which require a minimum distance from the building to the property line and other structures. In most cases, setback standards for agricultural buildings are greater than setbacks for garages and houses. You should call or visit the county Development Services Division to obtain setback information prior to starting your agricultural building project.
Do you have a setback requirement in your code? Are you adhering to it? If you have a HOA, and the concrete truck causes a crack in parking lot pavement, will anyone get PO'd? Call the code enforcement folks? Make you fill in your new basement? That is more risk than my cowardly guts would take on :o) At least make sure the kids don't have a party while you are away and have 100 of their heaviest friends on the deck :o)
While I am not sure about hot water heaters. I do know that in Florida, where I reside permits are cheap. More importantly if a permit is required for something done to your home & you fail to get the required permit, your insurance company (home owners,hurricane,etc) can refuse to pay your claims for items that are not done to code or with required permits. AND they don't ask you if items were done to code, or ask if you got required permits ; they log online into the building code dept and can bring up any & all building repairs done on your property. [ some sort of agreement between these agencies] And while permits are a nuisance and cheap here, FL homeowners insurance is 5 times the national average per square foot, so I'd be wasting my money to pay 3K for home owners insurance and then not have it cover something , say something like a wooden fence. [using that as an example] Do I personally think you need to have an engineering degree to construct a wooden fence on your property ? Heck No!! But Florida home owners insurance is extremely high and are allowed to dictate all sorts of "reasons" for not covering damages, so they do not have to pay claims. There are not many companies writing home owners coverage here, so changing your insurance company isn't an option. I've lived at my residence for 12 years ; my homeowners insurance in
1993 was $450; currntly it's $3K a year & ironically it doesn't even cover the complete value of my home, because I can't afford to pay for more. So $25-$75 for a permit? or next time a hurricane blows over your $8K wooden fence,it's just too bad?
Oh I do, love the show. I'm a strong believer that the line of defense for a home owner is education.
Inspectors are your friend(no seriously). Give one a call and ask them directly. One might even come out and check out what the work will involve and give you an educated answer to your questions.
Even if a permit is NOT required, only use contractors that are referred by real customers. Seek suggestions from work, church, family.
USE THE BBB. Example: There is a contractor in a nearby city. Some inspectors want to get their hands on him, but he always covers his arse. He tells the home owner to pull the permit to save money. If the home owner says no, he leaves. If the home owner does, they have a deal. The contractor does shoddy work(because he subs it out to unqualified people), and when it comes to inspection time, the home owner is hit for the violations. Home owners embarrished when they find out what happened do not legaly fight the contractor, often hire a real one to come in and finish the work. This 'bad' contractor has three hits on the BBB, and he finds victims.
Once you get a contactor, ask hime for example work and previous customers referrals.
Now we don't have to beat this dead horse, but the above will usually protect you from bad work. I've even thought about using escrow services for really big projects as a fall back. When someone asks about my work, I am proud to tell them, and after I'm done with a customer I ask them politely if in the future I can use them as a referral. But then, I like working and making customers happy, a big chump. ;)
Oh, so I still sincerely stand by my leaning towards getting a permit if borderline. Also, some homeowners let me have access to their properties, so I deal 100% with the inspection and permit process.
All it takes is one prick that you pissed of by parking too close to his car or starting your lawn mower too early one day. Never underestimate the wrath of a neighbor who's lawn your dog crapped on.
Where is that room in conjunction wiht the neighbor? If he is sitting in his yard, is ot going to block his view? Shade his garden? In a townhouse situation, that can really PO the neighbor.
One light or a 200A panel and lots of equipment. The inspector will still nab you if you are turned in.
The situation you describe sure begs for someone to rat you out. too much going on, too big a project to hide. It will take more than a $20 handshake to fix.
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