Carrier or Lennox ?

Replacement system. Down to a choice between Lennox 2 stage variable speed propane furnace G61V 70,000 BTU+ 2 stage HPX19 three ton heat pump or Carrier 2stage variable speed 58MVP 80,000 BTU furnace + two stage 38DVB three ton heat pump. There isn't $20 difference in the estimates. Trane guy priced a comparable system way high at 1200 more than either Lennox or Carrier so Trane is out. Plus for Lennox: Very Quiet (units close to master bedroom) Scroll Compressor - big advantage?
Plus for Carrier: Better control system
Efficiency is comparable. Prices are comparable. Warranty the same.
Anything else to consider?
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This is what bugs the sh*t out of me:
People buy new cars and will spend $1500 to $10,000 on options. People will spend over a quarter of a million dollars on a home. But when it comes to putting a system in that will give them trouble free comfort in a place where they LIVE, they will refuse to even consider a system because "it costs too much". You turn down a Trane system because it is "way high at $1200 more"? Heavens! You could put that towards those fancy wheel covers on your next car!!!
I'm not saying you should go with a Trane over the other brands. A system is as good as the contractor that installs it. But you need to look at the efficiency ratings, warranties, service (who will work on it oince it's installed) , etc. and base your decision on criteria other than price.
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On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 15:06:52 GMT, "Red Neckerson"

If you read my post you know I did consider those things. Like it or not, price is a discriminator and frankly it is goofy to think otherwise. All systems under consideration were "top of the line", all good products I consider fairly comparable. I see no reason to give an extra $1200 for the name "Trane". If you can show me that Trane is worth the extra $1200 over Carrier and Lennox go right ahead. I'd be happy to learn why you think so.
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Trane doesnt compare to Lennox or Carrier furnaces on heat efficiency or blower motor efficiency. On heat pumps I have no idea.
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You will get a more efficient motor on the Carrier for the furnace blower, I have the consumption sheets somewhere. It was apx 25% less on the Carrier VS DC blower. The Carrier thermostat that allows fan speed control at the stat is cheaper on Carrier by 1-200$. And I beleive has more features. Get the 10 yr warranty. The variable speed motors although redesigned do fail.
Get factory electric consumption sheets for both units for furnace and heat pump to make your own decision. Ive decided on carrier. Also because the secondary coil on the Lennox furnace looks to be impossible to clean easily, by its design. On an older 3 yr Lennox Dimension
Be sure you have a load calc done in writing, upping AC efficiency can often leave to much humidity if the unit is near to being oversized. If 3 is what you had and it was correct a new 3 ton has a higher seer, you may only want 2.5 ton . This was my mistake. Also if you plan future insulation or doors or windows figure this in now. Here again I made a mistake and insulated afterwards and my AC is oversized now. I must run 2 dehumidifiers to really remove humidity.
Also for the furnace, does yours keep up or is it underpowered, I down graded from 110000 btu to 47000 btu, now I get a more even comfortable heat, but I could have gone even lower. The Carrier is made to run more of the time at low fan speed. Here it is a matter of comfort and heat eveness.
In the end it is the installer that counts. Being sure he is real good, works with you and gets you the properly sized equipment. To small an AC , you wont cool, to large you will be humid and clammy. To small a furnace it will strugle, to large it will have heat swings, uneven heat and short cycle. Remember get a load calculation in writing, guessing is not going to work.
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On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 11:22:23 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Carrier does have better controls, I agree. I may go for extended warranty, depends on price.

Currently no furnace, heat strips only. Three guys did load calcs and all came up with 70,000 BTU and three ton AC. One guy admitted he thought it would be larger. It appears Carrier does not make a 70000 BTU furnace but I don't think 80000 is grossly oversized.

Yeah, I eliminated a couple of guys right away. One was selling the company and a "satisfaction guarantee" claiming I could get all of my money back if not happy and comfortable. He could tell me almost nothing about the equipment. He only sold "packages" at different price points...$3.000, $5,000, $10,000. Dropped him like a hot rock. Another sold Lennox but never looked at insulation, ductwork, sq. foot or did a load calc. He admitted he took the size off exixting equipment and used it. He had to go back to his office to "work up" a proposal. He is mailing it. I think it will get lost in the mail. ;)
Thanks for your input.
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With the equipment you are looking at , top of the line and all the extras there is alot more to break, get the 10 yr full warranty, a VS DC motor may be a 600 $ replacement.
You are looking at two stage gas, right. Carrier Mvp has a 49000 low fire 75000 high fire model, a 61000 low fire-93000 high fire Btu model and a 73000 low fire- 113000 high fire model . I dont know if these are input or output ratings, I believe output . The 70000 Btu he gave you is what you will need at the coldest temps. And is probably input btu. with a VS 2 stage you only need the high fire in cold weather, or for recovering from setback temps. You can use the 49000- 75000 unit, or maybe even a smaller one if theses are output figures. Dont oversize, you will get more even heat with a smaller unit, and short cycle less. My unit is oversized and the second stage is only used to recover from set back temps, not in normal operation. My next replacement will be a size smaller in Btu.
AC Compressors- heat pumps, have Db sound ratings from the factory, a standard is at 3 ft for testing, check ratings and at what distance the testing was done.
Either way both units are good, so it is up to a real good instaler to get you the right unit and proper instal.
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Trane is offering attractive financing and an $1000.00 rebate here. Does the Trane have an scroll compressor?
Scrolls are usually quieter than recips. I would ask each bidder for the address of installations of the condenser units and phone numbers. I would go listen to each. I put an American Standard/Trane outside my bedroom window because I was told I would never hear it. HE LIED. It took me almost 3 months to stop waking up every time the condenser turned on.
Are the heating and cooling seer numbers the same? I would go with the higher number for the biggest load you have. Heat or cool. Here I am not at all concerned with heat numbers as I use the heat maybe 6 days a year.
As others have said the installer is the key, not the equipment.
Are you going to get your ducts cleaned??? I would
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wrote:

Up to $1000 depending on what you buy. FYI so are Carrier and Lennox for a few more days.

Yikes. Well Carrier still uses recip and the equipment is fairly close to the master bedroom.

Yes, very close.

Never thought about it. Why?
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This is Turtle.
It would be hard to try to decide between a Carrier and a Lennox as to using the equipment quality as a deciding tool. Your guess is good as mine here.
Now what you should be looking at here is what kind of installer is the two dealer that are bidding on the equipment. Is the carrier or the lennox dealer the better installer. A good installer is hard to find in this world of who will do it for the least they can get by with. You need to do some research and fine out about some of the job the two dealers has done and see who really installs it correctly and not have any trouble afterwards. Get you 3 or 4 referrences from the two and call them up and talk about their equipment and about it running good afterwards.
Now one thing here have a scroll compressor on your unit for sure.
TURTLE
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wrote:

Lennox guy is a local boy who has done work for me before. Everyone will tell you his shop is good but expensive. Fact is he gave a better price than most from the small city 15 miles away.
Don't know the other guy but if I go Carrier I will check a couple of his installations.

Well, that may decide the issue. Lennox uses scroll but Carrier does not. Carrier claims a SEER as good as Lennox (maybe better) but many say Carrier is not as quiet.

Thanks Turtle.
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This is Turtle.
Get you a scroll in there and if noise is a issue. Get you a sound blanket for about $35.00 and put on the scroll compressor.
I didn't stutter here. Get you a scroll compressor on your stuff.
Now watch out here and get the installer that you know that has done good work for you in the past and don't try out somebody new on the block. Go with the installer that you know about and not one you WANT to know about.

Your Elkcome
TURTLE
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When it comes to HVAC, these qualities shouldn't be under estimated. It would take a very compelling reason not to tip the scale in this contractor's favor.

Everyone
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