Can't beat Amish craftsmanship!

[salty]

Cites?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Why don't you believe her? I've been in manufacturing for the past 45 years. Companies I've worked for did the same exact thing, selling under different labels. Products include heaters, air conditioners (both residential and industrial), frozen dinners, automobile parts and more. This is very common knowledge. Industrial unit heaters we made under three names. We even put Westinghouse labels on them and use GE and Century motors on them. How about this: Ford and Mercury. Olds and Pontiac, Chrysler and Mitsubishi. Kenmore and every brand imaginable. Cites my ass, I've seen it done!

[Harry K]

Exactly. Just look to the big 3 automakers. Same car, different name (Chev, Pontiac), different price. Only difference was a bit of trim change.

Harry K

[clare]

VERY common occurence, particularly since NO-ONE makes anything in America anymore. Several companies buy the same product from the same offshore manufacturer and have their "brand" put on it. One brand is upscale, and sells for more than the other "lowscale" brand.

Worse yet, an "upscale" brand has an offshore (usually Chinese) company make something for them with their namee on it, to their design, and said offshore manufacturer sells "excess production" to other resellers at reduced cost - and opens another factory to produce the "over-runs"

I've been in that situation, where computer cases designed by the company I worked for, and built with injection molds we paid for, were sold in "asian sources computing" magazine for less than half our cost, before we even got our first shipment.

[salty]

Just presenting her with a request to meet the same standards to which she holds others.

[Joe]

You are right even if you are being facetious(sp)

here is a story of how the mennonites work in shunning others: For more than three decades since he was excommunicated by a small, conservative Mennonite sect, effectively severing his relationship with his wife and six children, Robert Bear has tried a lot of things to get his family back.

He has filed a civil lawsuit and gotten arrested repeatedly in what he says is a strategy to discredit the Reformed Mennonite Church and undo the excommunication, called =93shunning.=94 Once, he even picked up his wife in his arms at a market and carried her to his truck before he was arrested on assault and kidnapping charges.

But Bear, a strapping 73-year-old who lives alone in a small, cedar- sided cabin amid Cumberland County=92s farm fields, has never repented to the church to undo the shunning, and said he does not regret his actions.

=93I wish I had never gotten into (the sect),=94 said Bear, a retired potato farmer who claims 300 years of Mennonite ancestors. =93But you get into it and the only way you get out is to die.=94

Despite saying repeatedly in the past that he would end his struggle, he has continued: On Tuesday, Bear avoided jail time on a trespassing charge by promising a Cumberland County judge that he would no longer stage protests of the church at a produce market primarily owned by a church elder.

Neither the employees nor their attorney, Michael Bangs, were relieved. They described a threatening situation in which Bear went into a tirade, shouting through a bullhorn. Bear, who has protested there repeatedly, denied being threatening or using a bullhorn.

Messages left this week for the church elder, Glenn Gross, who is also Bear=92s brother-in-law, were not returned. In the past, Gross has said that Bear earned the shunning by refusing to change his interpretation of the Scriptures.

Bear was first shunned in 1964 when he questioned church doctrine, but was accepted back. In 1972, he was shunned a second time, and decided not to repent on principle.

He now calls the church a =93cult=94 that controls its members through shunning and depriving men of their wives.

Shunning, a practice designed to shame a member into repenting, has been dropped by most Mennonite sects, said Donald B. Kraybill, senior fellow at the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Groups at Elizabethtown College.

The Reformed Mennonite Church, which formed in 1812 out of the Lancaster Mennonite Church, has had trouble keeping younger members and has withered to just 275 members in the United States, Kraybill said.

Bear=92s life since his shunning has been a litany of arrests and court hearings, a strategy that Bear uses to draw attention to his fight against the church. Since the 1970s, he has sent rambling, vitriolic letters to many people connected to his cases, prompting some to fear him.

The last time he tried to talk to his wife, about six or seven years ago, she told him to =93go to hell=94 and his oldest son, whose house is within view of Bear=92s cabin, thinks he is mentally ill, Bear said.

=93I think everyone would like to prove that I=92m mentally ill,=94 Bear said, =93and (sanity=92s) the only thing I have left.=94

Telephone numbers could not be confirmed for Bear=92s son or his wife and they could not be reached for comment.

An attorney who assisted Bear when he successfully represented himself in 1979 against kidnapping and assault charges said he wishes that Bear could have moved past the church.

=93He=92s been obsessed,=94 said the attorney, Taylor Andrews. =93His obsession to bring down the church and just be so preoccupied with those that have acted against him I think has deprived him of what could be the joys of life.=94

Andrews described Bear as a =93very decent, respectful, genteel individual=94 who does not present a physical threat, but acknowledges that many have seen him as being dangerous.

Bear said he still loves his wife and never remarried because he does not believe in divorce. His children are no longer members of the church, he said, but he describes his bond with them as =93broken.=94

Over the years, Bear has pledged to give up his fight against the church. He later reconsidered, saying that he wanted to fight for others who were also shunned =93as I wished someone would have done for me.=94

=93When you see what it does to marriages and families,=94 Bear said, =93wh= o would want to have it done to someone else?=94

I live in lancaster county--home of amish and mennonites and tradesmen of all types KNOW

--ask any of them--that amish and mennonite built homes are cut- cornered to make the highest profit margines Mennonites and Amish can almost never get public works projects due to the codes and they know they cant fleece inspectors like they can the general public

also amish and mennonites pay FAR FAR less to their employees than non cult firms as a whole and treat them like cattle or worse

they are evil to the core and it isnt just me--dont ask the idiot tourists from NYC and Joozy who come to see the amish Ask the old timers who have had to deal with the amish and mennonites here in this county and you will get the same disdain from nearly all of them

------ They are NOT a religion but a cult that lives for money and power in this county

----- dbcooper3390 at yahoo dot come

[Joe]

It is a piece of shit It puts out the same amount of heat in btus per wattage (or less) than a simple ceramic heater It's all commercial hype

ANYTHING electric is 100% efficient and one is no better than another at conveying heat Sure, heaters with a fan help to dissipate the heat better in the air but overall when it comes to electric heaters there is no efficiency loss so buying an amish (yeah, right--I live in lancaster county and amish are known to make the cheapest and worst houses and crafts for simple minded tourists) heater is no better than one made in china except you pay for a pretty facade that probably blocks heat output as well

[Joe]

The fact you find them intelligent means you have not had much contact with them there are a few but very few who have IQs above room temperature

Ask him sometime WHY he believes what he believes--they stutter and stammer but cannot answer

Here They use 30kw gensets in their barns as they run at a lower speed and diesel is cheaper and their barns are huge and need lots of power They wont drive a car but hire people to do it for them and they like that as it makes them feel special--like a movie star and they DO feel above the rest of society here in lancaster county where they live and laugh at the tourists as they fleece them for their money

I ought to know =3D=3D=3Dsadly, my father is a mennonite amish type and has refused to talk to me for 30 years as I wont go to his church Its a cult --no more-no less

[Joe]

hahah Do you see how they are using hammers and nails on finished woodwork It is all TV hype They pack the units and place the heaters into the wooden units before shipment

The amish part is simply a ploy to get suckers to buy thinking amish make good products (here's a clue--come to my county--amish country--and ask a general slice of craftsman about the quality of amish craftsmanship you will get an earful

they are always being fined and sued for inferior workmanship no houses here

[tmurf.1]

Flat hat butchers!

[clare]

As a Mennonite myself I'd say you are tarring with an awful wide brush. Yes, there ARE some splinter groups that are as you describe them, just as there are some splinter Mormon groups that have 15 wives, and some Catholic priests who abuse little boys, and some atheists who are mass murderers, some Baptists are Jimmy and Tammy Baker. Etc Etc.

Up here in Waterloo County, Ontario, there are MANY very progressive firms that are Mennonite owned. Some are among the very best companies to work for.

There are also quite a few businesses run by very conservative "mennonites" in the area who basically hire only their own. The one group in particular still practices "shunning" and do not eat with "outsiders". They are known as shrewd businessmen - many drink hard cider and smoke cigars - and have phones in the shop (but not the house), have computers and internet connections, and run everything off a diesel generator. Known locally as "the Mennonite Mafia" in jest.

Much of the BEST farmland in the area is mennonite owned and run, with the "family farm" becoming almost predominently a Mennonite phenomenon amongst the "factory farms"

And many of the most conservative are really and truly the "salt of the earth"

As for international conscience, all you have to do is look at the Mennonite Central Committee and MEDA (Mennonite Economic Development Association), or MDS (Mennonite Disaster Service) who show up totally unpaid volunteers after the worst disasters to help, clean up, and rebuild. There are teams orking steadily in New Orleans even now, helping those who have nothing and can not help themselves.

As aid organizations go, these 3 are among the top worldwide when it comes to effectiveness - the percentage of total funds that get "to the troups". American and Canadian governments have for many years matched funds on MANY relief projects with MCC in particular, with diaster relief going to places like Rwanda, Eritrea, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, the Pacific Sunami area, etc.

They ALWAYS have their own people "on the ground" to be sure relief gets to the intended recipients instead of being funnelled into the hands of crooked governments etc.

So PLEASE, take your Vitriol somewhere else. Check your facts. Yes, like in any other barrel, there ARE a few bad apples - but I'm sure the same can be said for your people, whoever they happen to be.

[clare]

The crafts for simple minded tourists are no worse than the cheesy chinese souveniers sold anywhere else throught the United States of America.

Try buying ANY other "american made" souvenier other than on a native reservation (and even there a lot of it is from "away".

They also make some VERY high quality crafts. You like quilts? Some of the very best in the world are pieced and sewed by the Mennonite community, and many of the best of those are donated and sold at the MCC (Mennonite Central Committee) anual relief sale in New Hamburg Ontario the last? weekend in May every year. There are several other sales around North America as well that raise money for international disaster relief.

[clare]

With the vitriol boiling in your viens I figured you had some kind of an axe to grind..

Go make peace with your Dad. To do so you will have to swallow your pride and give him some respect - He's living HIS beliefs. You are living yours.

Look for the good in people and you will find it. Show the good in you and others (mabee even your father) will find it too.

Perhaps the money from the tourists has corrupted a fair number from Lancaster County - my ancestors left Hershey,Hammer Creek and Peoria over 150 years ago.

[clare]

Some of their furniture etc is "rustic", but that's what a LOT of people want. It's solid, old fashioned, peasant fare. Would I have the Amish build me a $500,000 suburban house? Or a "french provincial" dining room st? Not likely, but some of the very best high end construction in these parts is done by Mennonite workers (some of them quite "conservative") working for a couple VERY well respected Mennonite contractors .

So narrow your Tar Brush.

[mm]

My father was a dentist in western Pa for 40 years, and he said that his Amish patients *always* paid. There are actually quite a few Amish there, and this was in the days when no one had dental insurance, and people often didn't pay doctors or dentists because they would continue to treat you anyhow.

My uncle was, I think, quite wealthy or at least well-to-do, when he lived in Harrisburg, on Front St. right across the street from the Susquehanna River, the nicest neighborhood in town. When the river overflowed one year, water filled the basement and went up to 1 or 2 feet on the first floor. A team of Amish showed up and 3 men worked two days to get all the wet ruined stuff out of the basement, while 2 Amish women worked for the same two days cleaning the first floor. My uncle said they wouldn't take any money and he was a generous guy and I'm sure he offered a lot. Other groups worked in the other flooded homes, every home on Front St. and I think the block farther from the river.

AIUI, Mennonites do the same thing.

I don't know how anyone could be fleeced in Lancaster. The prices are posted. Is entertainment too expensive? Yes, everywhere. But tourists are ready to pay.

The practice of shunning seems very harsh. I wouldn't like it either. I would hate it if it directly affected me. I'm not Amish or Mennonite and there is nothing I could have done that would have caused my parents to shun me. (Well, maybe if I murdered my brother and one parent, but short of that, nothing.)

I wouldn't assume there are any real Amish involved in the that heater/cabinet advertising. Maybe one or two. I woudln't assume the Amish looking men in the commercial are really Amish.

[Jose]

rote:

This man know what he speaks as I was brought up in a Mennonite family and know the Amish and Mennonite dogma well I wa 'shunned' and not able to speak to my own (adopted) mother for

20-30 years due to not going to their church as was beaten into me repeatedly as a child to do so ...to the point of broken and damaged ears and hearing organs which plague me to this day

Amish and Mennonites are only romanticized in my area (lanc county) as they bring a lot of tourist dollars into the county. Not like it once was but the Amish and Mennonites themselves have learned how to capitalize on their mis-truths and the outsiders naivete

------

[Jose]

much.

add this link and read of the mennonites as well they call it HOLY KIDNAPPING

[Jose]

:

-

And, up your way they still practice HOLY KIDNAPPING of children by Mennonites as well

You can bs all you want but you know the truth about Mennonites and Amish beliefs Nuff said

BTW--The Mennonites and AMish are KNOWN in Lancaster county for poor quailty cheaply built houses that routinely give owners problems after they are built Try checkinig out some of the huge Mennonite developments built here and subsequent mold and plumbing problems due to sub standard workmanshiip or simply ask the Manheim Township commishioners about some of the ticky tacky developments they allowed in before they realized how poorly Mennonites do their work Here's a clue for you on one.....

link:

[Jose]

h: They're

Of course, being Mennonite you will refute and do it in your own way

Mennonites/Amish are maestros of the passive-aggressive attack. It=92s one of the ways they enforce conformity

[clare]

This man also knows what he speaks of, as I was raised Mennonite in a largely Mennonite community (Waterloo County, and Woolwich Township - Ontario) and am still Mennonite.

Raised Old Conference (Now MCEC) currently Mennonite Brethren (Russian Mennonite) Some family still in MCEC, some Old Order, some Conservative, and I love 'em all.