bye-bye land line telephone

[hubops]

Nope - not on the hub. link below. One of my 3 old phones had it 1.2 I think. "load number" was specified on one, as 29. Dunno ...

John T.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip

This UPS is one of those APC units that look like a fat power strip. It could be a bad battery, that drops the voltage too much with more than a little load. It's something to consider when I need a new UPS for a computer.

[hubops]

Nope - not on the hub. link below. One of my 3 old phones had it 1.2 I think. "load number" was specified on one, as 29. Dunno ...

John T.

[gfretwell]

The 550-600 type? They have one battery and you don't even have to take it apart to get the battery out, There is a door in the back. Those are fairly cheap but be aware there are lots of model numbers for essentially the same battery. Watch the size and amp hour rating.

[Don Y]

I don't care about the price. My point is that there are far more variations in batteries -- battery sizes and numbers thereof. I have a UPS that takes *one* battery. Some two. Others 4. At one point, I had one that took *10* of the 12V 7.2AHr units (it was the size of a dishwasher).

[gfretwell]

I have worked in places with a room full of group 27 deep cycle batteries stacked 3 high in racks to power the UPS but this is not what we are talking about. APC uses 2 basic batteries in the half dozen or so units I have here. In some units they just glue a couple together to create a "battery pack" that they charge handsomely for, I suppose people who can't read specs and do a little shopping appreciate the simplicity so APC does it. There are plenty of customers who just throw the UPS away when the battery is dead. These are industry standard parts and I want to get them at the best available price. I certainly have not noticed that much difference between the life of a APC sourced part and one I get from a battery wholesaler. The wholesaler actually tends to have fresher ones.

[Don Y]

"29" sounds wonky.

No mention in any of the literature, either! Scarey! You might want to try calling yourself to see if it *can* ring all your phones. And possibly consider turning off the ringers on any that you can (old WE phones require you to disconnect the ringer leads internally)

[HerHusband]

My Cyberpower UPS has two batteries assembled into a single unit. Remove the cover, slide out the old battery unit, slide in the new one, replace the cover.

I made the mistake of buying inexpensive aftermarket batteries a couple years ago. The UPS claimed it would run over 70 minutes on the batteries, but when the power went out I was lucky to get 5 minutes from them (after three days of charging). They drained way too fast.

I recently bought the "genuine" Cyberpower batteries and now I really do get more than 70 minutes when the power goes out.

I'm sure the first set were just low quality as I've purchased many aftermarket batteries over the years. As you said, they're usually better than the official batteries.

Anthony Watson

[Don Y]

As I said upthread: "That's only for the smaller, consumer-ish units -- 12V 7.2AHr batteries."

Over the years: originally used to power my "24/7/365" box. Discarded as it didn't have much capacity (peak power as well as runtime) and was too tall to be of practical use (I wanted to wedge it under a dresser in the bedroom). It has *one* 7.2AHr battery in its belly.

also discarded for similar reasons (though it was lower profile and I could slide it under one of my dressers -- not possible with the previous unit)

I had a similar shape unit (but with a METAL skin) that also got discarded because it took a *different* battery (shorter and fatter) and I didn't want to have to buy two different styles of similar capacity batteries (I buy batteries in bulk -- 10 at a time). Also, it only had four outlets on the back and two of them were "pigtails". This was OK when the 24/7 box and switch were the only "local loads" but I now have a tablet PC and mouse charger plugged into the same UPS (immediately below).

Yet another similar version (different shape): is what currently powers the 24/7 box and the small 16port switch adjacent. Again, one 12V 7.2Ahr battery underneath.

I have one of these powering the set of three monitors shared by my two primary workstations: I have another that powers my "personal stereo" and "PROM programmer" (doesn't like to lose power when it is programming an EPROM!). They take two of the 12V 7.2AHr batteries arranged side by side.

I have eight of these: (or the 1200VA variants thereof) powering individual computers around the house. They also serve as handy "extension cords" and "outlet multipliers" -- allowing me to plug any specific peripherals that are associated with that particular computer into the same device so everything goes on/off with one switch. They take two of the 7.2AHr batteries but stacked one atop each other.

[You can buy the "12V 7.2AHr" battery in different claimed capacities; some as high as 9AHr. But, they're all the same physical size]

took a pass on a pair of these as they are really heavy (the bottom half is "all battery") and too big to slide "under" anything. It has a *pair* of these battery packs in it: each "pack" is roughly the size of a car battery (though actually two

12V batteries glued together)

I currently have three of these to power my automation system: though mine are the 1500VA size and equipped with network interfaces (so the automation system can query the state of the UPS's). They take *one* of the above battery packs.

I'm looking to replace these with something like the 3000VA version of: mainly because it is powered by a 48V battery pack: but entirely different size/shape batteries therein.

The 48V DC supply would allow me to directly power the PoE PSE without requiring a separate 3000VA 48V power supply! I.e., the AC capabilities of the UPS are largely ignored and it is treated as a big 48V battery.

But, a friend is suggesting addressing these needs separately; a tiny

100VA UPS to power the database server "PC" and a separate 48V battery with charger -- noting that the charger need not RUSH to recharge the battery pack after an outage (as is the problem with many UPS's). If so, using flooded cells for the battery could give me a much lower maintenance cost (lower the specific gravity)

Exactly. Buying a UPS is almost silly, nowadays. If you can't find someone EAGER to have you take theirs off their hands, you haven't tried!

Unfortunately, the larger devices (2000VA+) tend to see use in data centers. And, the folks there have budgets for battery replacements. So, discards are harder to come by (and often rack mount forms)

I buy the "7.2AHr" batteries in lots of 10 or 12. This usually gives me a 20% discount -- just for the quantity.

However, the larger UPS's need higher capacity batteries. So, this means keeping two different types of batteries on hand. And, given that batteries in THESE applications are intended NOT to be used/needed, it's a huge bit of cash tied up "just in case".

So, I'm now looking for cheaper/lower capacity batteries with a goal of just providing brownout protection and very short uptimes. The individual computers talk to their specific UPS's so they can shut down if the UPS tells them its failing. And, if I'm in the middle of something, I can always save my work and come back to it at another time (being able to "continue working" for long periods of time on any of 8 or 10 computers "at random" is a hefty "support" requirement for a UPS!). The *real* backup need is the automation system and a single LONG TERM solution, there, can pay off handsomely -- WITH the right UPS!

[Don Y]

That's true of most UPS's in the 600-1500VA capacity. At lower capacities, the cost of the second battery tends to drive a lower (DC) voltage design -- higher relative switching losses. Batteries are mounted side-to-side or top-to-top and held together with (effectively) "thick tape".

There's usually very little "extra" room in the battery compartment so a UPS that cooks its batteries can leave you with a mess -- trying to pull a "swollen" battery out of an already tight spot.

The larger capacity (2000+ VA) units tend to move up to 48V packs for increased efficiency. And, the packs tend to be genuine entities (not just batteries taped together but actual "enclosed cartridges") Part of this is due to the increased weight of a set of four, LARGER batteries as a replaceable unit.

IME, the UPS is the bigger problem than the batteries. I.e., you can easily change battery supplier (screw me once, shame on you; screw me twice, shame on me!). But, a misbehaving UPS will eat good batteries just as happily as bad batteries!

APC UPS's tend to overcharge their batteries. What's worse is the charging circuit seems to degrade over time. So, a UPS that is targeting an "ideal" cell float voltage can slowly creep up to an unhealthy level... and this isn't noticed until your "battery" is toast!

A better solution is a better charger. You'll note that the batteries in electric vehicles aren't naively charged (based solely on their two endpoints!). But, this adds to the cost of the UPS and requires changes to the batteries chosen. I.e., you'd want access to individual cells (or pairs of cells) instead of "groups of 6 cells". This would also cut maintenance costs as you could detect and replace bad cells instead of losing a set of 6 due to one of those 6 failing (and cooking the others).

[Micky]

So iiuc, you end up using your cell phone to tallk on your voip line, for no extra charge.

Or do you end up using your voip phones to talk on your cell phone line, paying whatever the cell phone charges, for international calls for example?

Or both?

>

[Micky]

Sometimes you can buy more extensions for the current phone. In my case it was cheaper to buy a whole second phone with a base station and a cordless phone, or maybe I bought that one first, but at least 3 extensions work with either base station (which has either a corded or non-cordedd phone.)

One of the buttons to answer the phone is taking a little extra pressure and I should buy a spare before they're all gone from ebay.

Absolutelyh

I haved one phone that is 50 years old and working fine, though it's hard to get to and rarely used, and another phone that's 60 or 70 years old and works fine. I'd put it in the living room but there's no jack and hard to ilnstall. ...Wait, that must be why I bought the wireless jack. But the phones I use are about 10 y.o.

[Paintedcow]

I always wondered what would happen if I switched all my phones to VOIP, on my dialup internet service, and then had my phone service disconnected..... :)

[Unquestionably Confused]

[snip]

Neither, actually. We had the traditional POTS - no VOIP, Cable, etc.

We found that we RARELY got any calls on the land line. They all went to the cellular phones. We simply told AT&T to take a hike and went total cellular but added the Siemens Gigaset for convenience of not having to carry the cells around with us at home.

The transition was more or less seamless. We have our cells, we have our cordless and wired phones. Only difference is we now have TWO separate lines at home and no long distance or local charges.

[HerHusband]

Don,

Yep, mine has the top-to-top arrangement with a little wiring block in- between and the "thick tape" to hold it all together.

It's a shame UPS's haven't switched to lithium batteries. They're smaller, lighter weight, and they hold their charge longer. My power tools all use

20V lithium battery packs, and my string trimmer and leaf blower use 56V lithium battery packs. Laptops and electric cars use lithium batteries too.

The only downside is that potential of catching fire. :)

My previous replacement batteries wouldn't hold a charge from the day I installed them. They seemed to charge up normally and the control panel said I would get 70 minutes of run time. Unfortunately, when the power went out the batteries drained very quickly and the UPS shut off after just 5 minutes.

The new batteries are working like they're supposed to. I get at least 70 minutes with them.

Anthony Watson

[Don Y]

For the side-by-side arrangement, the tape is double-sided and sits between the batteries. Often a PITA to get them apart (as you don't want to pry them apart with a sharp object and risk cracking the cases). The top-to-top are easier to manage.

When you (eventually) have to replace them, save the "wiring block" (I'm glad YOU gave it a name; I'd have just called it a "plastic thingy that goes between them" :> ). You need to *slide* it ALONG the top of each battery to disengage the FastOn's from the battery.

Then, 2" packing tape works great to tape the new batteries together.

They're also more expensive -- almost double the price of SLA/AGM.

Of course, depends on your load. E.g., the XS1500 that powers my monitors will keep them running for almost a DAY -- if they are in StandBy mode! :> But, once lit up, the runtime estimate drops to ~20 minutes (200W).

As an "expensive flashlight (powering a 13W CFL), it will run for several HOURS!

[Micky]

Very interesting. Copy to MissA, who might have some use for this information.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

One battery, labeled "Genuine RBC" with no capacity markings.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

I used to have a "ring control cord" (fro Radio Shack) that would add a ringer switch to any phone. It was just a switch across a full-wave rectifier.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

I have a 3-handset cordless phone that allows up to 10 handsets. I looked on the internet for extra handsets and they cost so much I was better off buying another system (and that comes with an extra base, too).

[snip]