I was going to jump on Mike but then you proved him totally correct!
The insulation in most water heaters today is good and easily supplicated as well. That's not a valid point at all.
Sure it does. Gas water heaters do have (and have had for years) such as setting. An electric heater has the circuit breaker--kick it off and the hot water cost is then zero.
Nope, not even slightly.
Which you didn't do here. There are many situations where tankless is far from optimal.
Oh, and FYI, I've had both, and I'm totally satisfied with the results of my 40 gal *tanked* water heater! We're not talking investigation here, but real world experience.
That should tell you something. Typically, I size a 40 gal for 2 or 3 people. 50 gal is usually 4,5 or 6 people. This is all subject to their habits and personal water useage.
Lots of builders use builder grade cabinets, hvac equipment, shingles, etc., etc.
Again.......doesnt that tell you something?
I would have to say yes, that overkill unless you have a hot tub or some other strange excessive need of hot water.
Define large. More hot water WILL equate to more gas useage.
Not that I know of. You can usually buy the biggest house, car, boat, plot of land or anything else you want if you have enough dough. I could install 2 - 100 commercial gas water heaters for you if you'd like as long as you are willing to part with about $8,000. You wont run out of hot water though.
They dont pay me to advertise their brand so I choose what works best.
Well, its actually a silly question when you look at the way a water heater actually works. Half of the tank doesnt get "used up". There arent separate chambers in the water heater. The incoming water temperature mixes with the temperature of the water in the tank constantly as the water is being used. Thus, the tank loses temperature if the water is being used up faster than the burner can heat it. You can put two water heater together in parallel with proper valving (not series) if you wish for more capacity but with 4 people you can solve your problem with pretty much a single standard water heater. Keep in mind that if you have high water pressure (something above
75psi or so) you might want to install a pressure reducing valve on your water line. Higher pressure uses more water and is harder on tanks, valves, seats, cartridges, washers and hoses. Bubba
Get an 80 gallon water heater. Check the efficiency rating tag on the heater and get the most efficient one. Ignore all other comments -- sometimes you can get too much information.
We have two water heaters, a 50 and a 40 both natural gas. The 50 covers master bath, washer, kitchen and dishwasher. The 40 handles the remaining bathrooms; 3 lavatories and 2 showers. Our son would take 20 minute showers and then say that it got cold when 40 gallons was gone. I now have 1.6 gpm nozzles in the two bathrooms off the 40 gallon unit and the kids are gone as well.
Realize that the burner in the 40 and 50 are the same heat capacity (BTU), so the 50 just has an extra 10 gallon reserve. We have also recently replaced the laundry equipment with front-loaders that use less water.
If you are taking two long showers AND running the washing machine AND the dishwasher 80-100 gallons would NOT be overkill and you WILL see double the gas usage. Here's why- Right now, when all the hot water is gone, humans decide to come back later, washers don't stop just because the input water temperature is low, they just wash with cold water. When you get two units, each is about 40,000 BTU/hour and you will be running BOTH of them at the same time trying to recover from the continuous usage. Since the water stays warm, the humans will extend their showers and the washing equipment will use the same amount that they do now. Hotter water does not reduce the cycle time.
Better go get those 1.6 gpm shower nozzles now. The kids can still get clean in a finer spray, just using less water.
This is totally false. According to the U.S. DOE, the standby losses of a conventional electric water heater with an EF rating of 0.93 are
331 kWh a year. At $0.10 per kWh, these losses amount to less than $3.00 per month. And if you live in an area where heating demands dominate and the tank is located inside a conditioned space, your actual out-of-pocket expense would be even less.
In addition, if you install a tankless water heater and it results in excessive strain on the utility's distribution system or adversely impacts power quality (e.g., flickering lights due to high transient load), you could be held personally liable for the full cost of any necessary transformer and line upgrades; a next door neighbour complaining to the power company about "bad power" could very well cost you several thousands of dollars.
The 40-gallon water heater in our old house died just as our three daughters "discovered" hot water.
I installed a 50-gallon. It was a PERFECT fit for the five of us.
In our next house, built in 1991 with one full and two 3/4 baths, we have a 50-gallon heater and have virtually never run out of hot water.
Probably not a LARGE increase. Your hot water consumption is what it is, whether it is delivered using a 40-gallon tank or an 80. The cost to heat a gallon of water will be the same with either tank. It's the standby loss that would make the biggest difference between the two sizes.
I think they're all the same. Price difference will be dictated by length of tank warranty and BTU input.
Have your plumber install his spec model 50. Done. Have fun!
thought we needed watr heatr and researched tankless but was afraid we'd lose our on demand feature and waitng 4 hot water would b an issue..mayb ok 4 auxiliary hot water...good luck..sherry
whats to debunk the savings will take longer than the life of the heater......
please explain how this is a advantage?
A: DEAR BOB: Tankless water heaters -- it's one of those topics that seem to polarize people, and I have come to realize that many consumers don't stop and ask all the right questions before they get out their credit cards or checkbooks. It is impossible in this limited space to fully discuss the topic.
I am going to stick to some basic facts I've gathered from my utility bill, from water-heater manufacturers and from Web sites that sell additional installation parts. I am adding a pinch of high school math.
A tankless water heater can cost up to three times what a traditional storage-tank water heater does. Some tankless water heaters that use natural gas or propane require expensive stainless-steel exhaust- venting pipes. The gas lines feeding the heaters need to be larger than those required by a traditional model. This is not a challenge in new construction like your vacation home, but it can add considerable expense in an existing home where the fuel lines might need to be redone.
Tankless water heaters are more energy-efficient than traditional storage-tank heaters. A traditional water heater might be 60 percent efficient, whereas a newer tankless heater often can produce efficiencies of 80 percent or higher.
I studied my August 2007 utility bill and found that I spent about $36 on hot water using a traditional storage-tank heater for a family of five sometimes taking two showers a day. My winter hot-water costs could be expected to be slightly more because the temperature of the incoming water is colder and must be heated longer to reach the desired temperature.
We use our water heater every day. You may be using your water heater for 40 to 50 days a year.
If I were to switch to a tankless heater today, I might save $7 per month on the efficiency differential and maybe an additional $2 per month on the amount of energy lost while the heated water sits in the tank. This means a tankless water heater could save me $108 per year. Let's be more aggressive and say $125 per year.
If my existing water heater failed today and I replaced it with a tankless model sized for my family's needs, I would have to spend an extra $1,550. It would take me nearly 12 1/2 years to break even. If I included lost interest income on the extra money I spent for the tankless model, the payback period would be longer.
In your case, the bottom line is far worse. It could take you at least
30 years to break even because the tankless water heater would sit idle in your vacation home for most of the year. Tankless water heaters must work hard every day to make economic sense for many people.
The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4 years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60% efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.
Here we go again the same missinformation, with 90-100f temp rise offered you cant have a cold shower, I cant shower at over 106f but my unit takes 35f water and heats it to 125 if I was to be wastefull.
Mine has battery ignition and regular vent-No A.C. But I have a generator for my home for heat.
It took me 5 hrs to install, but I guess thats "super expensive" for you. I put in 3/4 gas but that was only 1 hr work, again easy and cheap, my meter is original.
Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed every year.
20% of your loss is waste-up the chimney and out, of no benefit to anyone but your gas supplier since true overall efficency is near
50-60% in " Energy Factor" proven ratings
I paid about 500$ for a Bosch 117000btu unit, I get a FOUR year payback, I hardly see the 3-4x cost of waste, I see I am saving money
Tank, loose efficency every year due yo scale settling over the burner, just as my last tank had over a foot of scale at the bottom, its efficency was probably reduced 20-40%, tankless dont do that, and its easy to pour lime away through mine. You cant do that with a tank.
Do you have water reducing shower heads and faucet strainers, Your tank may not have the recovery or as I realy suspect, a waste of hot water as in long showers and hw faucets run without concern. I would not recommend a tankless with a large family that is not truely trying to be conservative on water as it will likely cost more to heat with tankless, Kids will do the 20 min shower. A 40 with faster recovery, a bigger tank, will all work, so might education and conservation.
Depending on your local rate it could be easily 80% more efficent, mine was about 75% cheaper converting from electric tank to Ng tankless. Then again some have cheap hydro and expensive fossile fuel, and savings could be Zero. Each person has their own unique set of costs, for some tankless is best, for some that would need large tankless and major gas work tankless are not worth it.
"Tankless require no "service" but tanks are supposed to be flushed every year"
then talk of pouring lime away thru yours
"tankless dont do that, and its easy to pour lime away through mine. ""
frankly draing a little bit of water out of the bottom drain valve is way easier than taking the plumbing apart to pour in lime away, which isnt cheap, and then flush it out somehow.
plus you always talk of 20% going up the chimney as standby loss but refuse to supply a link to verify that:(
people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to convince themselves it was a good move........
BUT, can you get 140 - 160 degree water out of it?
I thought not. It doesn't matter if the junk mf's are FREE to run if you can't get what you need out of them.
s
The only bullship is your knowledge, at my previous location I installed a $500 Bosch ng tankless, my bill went from 20 to no more than 10$ in summer, that includes gas dryer and stove, my payback is 4 years, where I am now is Ng Tank and last summers gas bill is back to no less than 22 with gas stove and dyer. Tank Ng are only near 60% efficent even with an 82$ efficent burner.
Kind of like the boys with the high dollar K$N filters on their trucks. .... They'll always tell you they run better when they know good and well it made no difference whatsoever...
s
people who go tankless have spent so much money they will have to convince themselves it was a good move........
We're really speaking of two separate things: efficiency and cost-effectiveness based upon fuel choice and my comments pertain to the former. The poster claimed a "tankless is 80% more efficient than an electric tank" and this statement is categorically false.
As noted above, the standby losses of an electric water heater with an EF of 0.93 or better are less than 1 kWh/day; at $0.10 per kWh, less than $3.00 per month and during the winter months the net out-of-pocket expense would be lower if the tank is located inside a conditioned space (effectively nil if the home is electrically heated and potentially net positive if heated with oil now that fuel oil in many parts of North America is more expensive than electric resistance).
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