40 gal just not enough: Replacing water heater for 2400 sq home. Family of 2 adults + 2 children

Apr 07, 2008 248 Replies

guy:

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heres your link its about boilers, remember were talking hot water tanks:)

The Talk of The Town Online Only Subscribe About Us Archive Store The New Yorker Welcome to NewYorker.com Log in | Register In the Basement The Boiler Man by Robert Sullivan March 17, 2003 Text Size: Small Text Medium Text Large Text Print E-Mail Feeds Keywords Gifford, Henry; Boiler Rooms, Boilers; Tours; New York City; New York City Boiler Tour; Gifford Fuel Saving, Inc.; Apartments One thing that distinguishes Henry Gifford's New York City Boiler Tour is the fact that there are no boiler tours quite like it in New York City, not to mention anywhere else in the United States or, possibly, the world. Another is the singular passion for boilers that is exhibited by Henry Gifford, of Gifford Fuel Saving, Inc. Gifford came to boilers late in life, when he was twenty and had already worked as a bicycle mechanic, a window-gate welder, and a landlord. As a landlord, Gifford had calculated that the biggest variable in terms of expenses was the boiler. He observed that in the boiler arena there seemed to be what he called a "knowledge vacuum," and he set out to fill it. "I miss having buildings," Henry, who is now forty-two, said the other day, as his tour was about to kick off. "But I would have gotten tired of it by now, and I would have missed all the fun I've had with boilers."

Not surprisingly, some of the forty-one people who signed up for this inaugural boiler tour did so as much to be with Henry as to see the boilers. Tim Baker, the managing editor of a mechanical-engineering magazine, flew in from Cleveland. "I mean, you can just sense the love that this guy has for boilers," Baker said.

The three-day tour started early on a cold Thursday on the ground floor of a multifamily apartment building on East Fifth Street. Over coffee and bagels, Henry introduced people. "You know when you want to see what kind of an airflow you've got in a room, so you measure it with a blower door? Well, this guy makes them," he said, pointing to Gary Nelson, who had flown in from Minnesota, and who was scanning the room with an infrared camera, searching for heat leakage. There was the usual run of boiler enthusiasts: architects, alternative-energy marketers, officials from the Building Performance Institute, and a landlord named Ralph, who looked like an old sailor.

Henry began with a lecture, accompanied by slides. In his view, the two most prominent New York City heat-related phenomena--open windows in overheated apartments, and clanking radiators--are prime examples of boiler ignorance and waste. To no one's surprise, Henry's talk went long.

When he was done, the tour group set out to look at some boilers. There was a quick stop at a building on Avenue C, to watch a boiler- related film, "Carmelita Tropicana: Your Kunst is Your Waffen," starring Carmelita Tropicana, a superintendent/performance artist. That was followed by a lunch break at Katz's Delicatessen, on Houston Street, where a woman in a fur coat said to the group, "What? Are you bird-watching?" Someone told her what they were up to. "Boilers!" she said. "Oh, that's not very exciting." In the afternoon, Henry sneaked his people into the basement of an old church, where they saw the history of boilers encapsulated: turn-of-the-century coal to eighties super-efficient natural-gas-fired pulse combustion, then back to oil. On the way out, an engineer from Massachusetts said, "I feel excitingly illicit."

from the issuecartoon banke-mail thisThe next day, everyone met up in Harlem, in a brownstone with hundred-year-old radiators, each with a thermostat attached, a detail that made Henry ecstatic, even though Con Edison hadn't hooked up the gas and everyone was shivering. In the basement, with a single light bulb dangling above his head, he described the Gifford formula for calculating pipe friction and flow, a formula that, despite Henry's best efforts, has yet to be embraced by the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air- Conditioning.

All told, the boiler tour went on for seven days--four days and many heating systems more than Henry had planned. But it was during the lecture/slide show, on the first day, that Tim Baker, the engineering- magazine editor, asked the question that seemed to sum it all up. "Henry," he said, his pen in the air. "You've talked about the ignorance, the dishonesty. Why is this?"

Henry's face broke into a grin that was bright enough to heat a loft space. He turned to an associate, who was working the slide projector. "Put the Madonna slide on," he said. The slide showed young people standing in line on a Greenwich Village sidewalk. "O.K., so these people want to be dancers with Madonna's world tour," Henry said. "Look at this--the line stretches around the block. I asked these people, 'How much does this job pay per hour?' And none of them knew. This has to do with what I call the Gifford Status-Money Ratio: the amount of money a job pays is inversely correlated to the amount of status the job has. The dancers get paid with social status. Boiler work has zero or negative social status. And this ratio also influences the quality of work to be gotten from a person working in that field. In the basement, there's money, but there's no status. This doesn't mean you're dumb if you work in the basement. It just means that you're not expected to be smart. The fact is, excellence is not expected in the basement."

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i walked thru home depot, their longest warranty is on a standard tank

12 years. you can verify this easily, sears etc.

your turn show me a 30 year life for a modern tankless..........

ransley must own stock in a tankless manufacturer, that would explain his rant.

my only point is to educate people before they buy a tankless so they arent disappointed.

what they ultimately choose doesnt effect me either way.

but i dont rant and rave like ransley, who undewear must be in a wad:)

My dad and mom had a 3 bedroom home. I grew up with 7 brothers and sisters. We had a 40 gallon natural gas water heater for the house, and another outside for the washer only. We all knew there was a time interval between showers and baths for hot water. The hot water heater closet was immediately next the the single bathroom. It stopped protesting noises when it was ready again. And, yes, sometimes someone would have to do without for a day, or stay up later.

Currently, I live alone. I've got a 40 gallon electric version 2 tank model. It runs out of hot water around the time just before I fill the bath so I end up with mediocre hot water. I love hot water. The shower always is less warm than the bath. From the git-go to the end of short shower. Got one of those one valve jobbers for selecting hot/cold for the shower and bath. Haven't figured that out yet.

My opinion is it's caused by a failing in the American educational system (I'm sure other countries have similar failings, but I'm only an expert on America). We don't learn analytical thinking, nor how to apply analytical thinking to practical everyday problems. We aren't taught to be critical consumers.

I studied physics, and TA'd freshman physics labs at Georgia Tech, a place where reasonably bright, reasonably well educated types go. They all knew the algebra necessary to solve the labs (it was 9'th grade level math), but it was extremely rare to find someone who would, without walking them through it, be able to take the simple physical problem and translate it into the simple mathematical equation, and then solve that equation.

American consumers, just like American voters (same people after all) are far more likely to make an emotional decision than a rational one, although a goodly number of them go to a lot of effort to rationalize their decisions afterward. Then they go to a lot of effort to justify their rationalizations, instead of being flexible and changing their minds about things as new information and technology arises (look at how much mileage Bush got out calling Kerry a 'waffler').

Because their decision making is emotional, they get emotional about justifying the decision, and it becomes next-to-impossible to argue with them. The more thoroughly you can prove that they are mistaken, the more pissed off they will get, and impossible to convince.

Additionally, as a culture want simple answers. We like to paint things in terms of good and evil, right and wrong. The water heater thing isn't so simple. Whether a tankless system is good for you depends on your use, and it's worth going over the facts and making an intelligent decision. On the other hand, the facts seem to indicate it is the right choice for the majority of people, not to mention the environment.

Finally, we're a pretty prideful people. Humility is not taught as a virtue in our culture. So we take it as a personal shortcoming, or a loss of face, when we are proven wrong. The more passionately we argue for something, the more face we lose if we change our mind. It's important to struggle against that mode of being since it leads to really sub-optimal solutions.

For my side,I would hope both this post and the previous one showed more a passion for analytical thinking and reasonable decision making than they do for tankless water heaters :)

glen

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The longest tank heater warranty is the same as the longest tankless, 12 years.

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The expected life of a tankless system however is roughly double the tank, and maintenance is cheaper. See

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the passion?

i liove endless hot water and my 50 gallon high BTU tank provides over twice what my old 40 gallon 34,000 BTU one did. its a small luxury and my gas bill appeared unchanged after its install

another tankless issue is the ones with heat modulation, where the burners go up and down automatically. these changes can be so fast a temperature compensating shower valve may have trouble keeping up, and be terrible for someone without temperature control.

That's a partial factor, but fear of change is as old as humanity itself.

. [irrelevant stuff snipepd]

Again, it's as old as humanity. I could dig out some quotes from ancient Greece or Rome, but why should I?

So did primitive tribes thousands of years ago.

Now, I will say that, as an "advanced civilization", we should have outgrown those issues, but another look at our modern culture shows westill have the trappings of primitivism, superstition, etc.

These "trappings" are our "security blankets".

I hope to hell not, because thatpride is what helps us to adpt, to do great works, and to outgrow that "trappings" mentioned earlier.

Adults take a much different tact, but maturity is in short supply, just as "common sense" was not so common to Ben Franklin 250 years ago.

There is nothing more noble or honorable than someone admitting they were wrong. Philosophers have written about it for centuries.

Problem is, free will (thinking) is not automatic. And you are right to an extent, in that our (US) education system has been geared in the opposite direction for about 100 years now.

I think a major failing shown here is your own naïveté about history and human nature, but your making the effort for yourself which is a good thing.

Matt

l the passion?

analytical

critical

ing isn't

ut history and

people buy overpriced desgner clothes, drive big hugger SUVs and do a myriad ofr other wasteful things to make them happy, or try to.......

just look at the lifetime cost of cigarretes, while they literally burn the money with a match, then want health care to pay the bucks to save their life when they get ill from the same tobacco products they wasted money on.

so enough hot water is a very minor issue........

"glen stark" wrote

Interesting rant Glen, and some truth to it for some, but what about those of us who did check them out and found we get a slight edge with a tank system? I used the links. It doesnt matter if the cost of gas goes up or down a little as it's a ratio that will still be there. I matched only newer gas 40g's to tankless of the same output level.

The only 'edge' spot in our use pattern the tankless had, was possible longevity but this _may_ be offset with the difficulty of repair on a relatively new item and finding a repair person trained to work on them. Also, it wasnt clear how stable the parts will be since the technology seems to be changing fairly fast? (IE: you can still get a VCR repaired if you want, but I wouldnt waste time looking for betamax parts).

Lets see how stable the parts market and inventory of technicians is when I need to replace first. If mine lasts another 3 years, the efficiency ratios and other aspects will probably have changed. It could well be that then, tankless will be a much better bet.

Could you fill me in though on 'temperature balancers'? I simply didnt track that one fully and suspect we might need something for the shower if we go tankless? Thats probably not very expensive to add but this is an older house and wouldnt have that in there now.

I also need to backtrack my earlier post. I had forgotten my old 40g gas one went bad when we were overseas and our house was rented. The 'new' one is about 5 years old but *not* a very efficient model. I am certain from other aspects of the house, the renters never did any maintenance on it. We are looking up the book on the model to see how this one is cleaned.

It also clarified for us why we are running out of hot water. I found the old book on the old unit and it was a 60G gas. However looking at efficiency ratings, I think we will stay with a 40G or if we go up, go up to

50G.

We already talked with a retired handyman who's done small stuff for us and he knows this type of unit well. He even mentioned that on some of them, it can be just a touch tricky to do the maintenance. I think he was referring to the pilot light but not sure? He'll be over later this weekend to take a peek at it. Don't worry, he's a very careful type. If he's not absolutely sure how this unit is cleaned, he won't touch it. (He doesnt do electrical work etc, just odd side handyman stuff like fixing lawnmowers, helping with regular maintenance chores, cleaning gutters and so forth. Helping clean hot water heaters is a common one for him).

If it can be cleaned and isnt damaged too much by no maintenance, it may last another 6 years but we may replace earlier due to energy ratings.

:> people buy overpriced desgner clothes, drive big hugger SUVs and do a :> myriad ofr other wasteful things to make them happy, or try to.......

Or maybe they buy these things because they're happy and prosperous.

:> just look at the lifetime cost of cigarretes, while they literally :> burn the money with a match, then want health care to pay the bucks to :> save their life when they get ill from the same tobacco products they :> wasted money on.

WTF, due? Are you on medication that we should be aware of, are you congenitially unable to make mental connections?

:> so enough hot water is a very minor issue........

Right: you got caught with your head up your ass, so change the subject.

[plonk]

Making an assessment of "requirements" and conditions is the basis of engineering.

Making decisions on the basis of something like, "That's the way we always did it" is what Glen was driving at.

They point Rico was making is that there are alternatives available that offer advantages FOR DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

Analogy: if you have six kids, a compact car is probably not appropriate, a mini-van is more feasible. If you live in snow country or haul a lot of stuff, and SUV might be the trick (think of the picture we've all seen of the compact car with a load of plywood on the roof).

Or, put another way, a .22LR is not suitable for moose, and a .300 Win Mag won't leave much meat on a rabbit. :~)

I believe the cost of gas does matter. A basic tankless and a good, normal efficiency tank will both have a marginal efficiency of about

80%. The difference is in the initial efficiency, since the tank has the standby losses and the tankless doesn't. That is, for any usage, the tank gas water heater will roughly use the same amount of gas as the tankless would, plus a fixed amount for the standby losses.

So the natural gas savings of the tankless are basically independent of usage, and the dollar savings depend exactly upon the price of natural gas. For a given cost difference of the initial installations, the payback time for the tankless will vary inversely with the price of natural gas.

Yours, Wayne

This subject has really gotten a lot of attention. So, I'd like to toss in my 2 cents....

I have a tankless unit and I think it is great in that there is endless hot water and it is only creating hot water when needed.

The point I'd like to make is that there are MANY household items that folks purchase that cost as much or more than tankless water heaters and those items are not scrutinized in the way of efficiency or payback. So, how does one justify paying $2,000 for a huge diagonal LCD TV? Has anyone ever seen a big yellow EnergyGuide sticker on an item like that?

Oh well, for what it's worth....

...Bob

ll the passion?

analytical

critical

ing isn't

=EF=BF=BD

portant to

Only a junk unit would not modulate, I will bet all do now, no modulation means its on 100% all the time and that is a waste of money, my shower is fine, ive never had an issue. With no modulation and a 100f rise 70f incomming would be heated to 170f.

My tankless was 500 with tax, 117000 btu battery ignition Bosch. Many households need no more.

earlier you said them,any did you install?

I installed mine, I dont follow you on " earlier I said them"

In Canada, you can't touch anything related to natural gas or propane unless you are licensed gas technician. In addition, all work requires a gas permit be pulled and two signatures on the green tag for sign-off. Definitely not something you can tackle on your own, at least not legally and without voiding your homeowner's insurance policy.

Cheers, Paul

Easy. Joe Sixpack is in the shower for ten minutes on Saturday night, but he is in front of the tube 6 to 8 hours a night.

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