I'm replacing my central air and have gotten estimates for one w/R22
and one w/ Puron. The last guy said he'd go w/R22 because of the
higher costs of 410A and that it would cost more to repair. Also, he
doesn't like it because of the higher pressure it's under, and he said
the units were less reliable and would have more costly repairs.
I've looked at past posts, googled for info, but it's hard to get an
objective opinion. I'm in Georgia so the AC gets a lot of use. I may
stay in the house only 3 more years, and the repairs/costs would be
someone else's headache, but then again, would the 410A unit be a
better selling point in 2010? And if I end up staying until 2020,
would I have to replace the AC again to the newer refrigerant?
10-15 years and which may ultimately cost more due to older
Advice and opinions welcome.
Get another air conditioning contractor's opinion. R22 and R410 are both
excellent refrigerants. But, time is taking a toll on R22. It will be
around longer than you and I care about, but the cost will be higher. Hell
everything costs more anyway, doesn't it.
And today, most R410 units are more efficient than their older counter
The R410 units are just as reliable, and more efficient. Soon, the
refrigerant cost for R22 may be higher than R410. Get two more opinions
Tell the last guy to go back to school, and learn how to deal with and get
certified for R-410a. In the mean time, look for somebody that actually
knows what they are doing.
In 2 1/2 years, you won't have a choice. Rheem is shutting down their R-22
equipment assembly lines in December 2007.
You can do what you want, but FWIW, I haven't even offered R-22 systems in
the last year. R-22 is gone by the wayside.
Like I said, by January, 2010, you won't have a choice.
In 2004, the availability of R-22 was reduced by 35% and the wholesale price
tripled. in Jan 2010, R-22 will be cut back an additional 65%, in 2015 R-22
will be cut back another 90%, so in 7 1/2 years, the availability of R-22
will be almost non existent. Yes there are some "drop-in" replacements, but
using them will void any compressor manufacturers warranty. If in 5 years if
your R-22 system needs to be gassed up, be prepared to pay $100/lb or more.
There are those on here that would disagree with me, but for the most part
those who do disagree, don't have the training, or hands on experience with
waaay cool. I'm sittin on 4 pallets of R22. You paying attention
Rich? this is better than the stock market! All the more reason to
keep on installing R22 units!
You do the 410, I'll stay with R22 equipment til there aint no mo. :)
oh but we will have a choice. watch rheems market share plummet.
personally I don't know of any consumers who are excited about the
idea of not having a choice, regardless of what the product is.
with you putting all your eggs in rheems basket, it sounds to me like
you're the one without many choices ! :)
along with all the potential cutomers you passed up by not offering
them a choice!!
I don't know of any customers that are excited about the rising cost of R-22
either. Until 2000, the customer didn't have a choice, it was R-22 or
I could sell lesser brands also(Payne, Bryant, Luxaire, Armstrong, etc), but
why would I want to??...... The other brands cost the same.
The only ones I am passing up are the ones that want it cheap. In the last 6
months there have been several contractors go out of business because they
were selling 13 SEER equipment at 10 SEER prices.... there will be more to
I said "for the most part", *NOT* "everybody", and certainly not everybody
Speaking of.... not only are refrigerants changing... but....
Does everyone know that their analog T.V. will be junk come 2009? All of
the broadcast stations will be converting 100% to digital. If you want to
keep your analog T.V., it'll cost ya. You'll have to purchase a
"Noon-Air" < email@example.com> wrote in message
It keeps changing. As of right now. They are gonna wait till all the
people who have the 1950 9" black and white model of TV dies so they
aren't deprived of viewing. Meaning there is no firm date anymore.
AARP is actually fighting the change over. A few screwing it up for the
They have an old black and white they need to swap back to radio. sheesh
Oil is the problem. R-22 is the better choice because of it.
The POE oil is composed of alcohol, carboxylic acid and an inhibitor
with water as a by-product. (Why it's Hygroscopic)
Moisture or high temperatures can break the oil down and it will revert
back to alcohol and carboxylic acid.
Industry is trying to find a different oil.
The pressure sucks too.
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:59:24 GMT
Not to worry. I bet we'll eventually be going back to good old propane
(R-290) and other hydrocarbons. Propane is a (currently illegal in the
USA) drop in replacement for R-22.
"Europeans, especially in the north, tend to see air conditioning as a
luxury, and home air conditioning units are simply not the norm. Perhaps
for this reason they are less concerned about the flammability and
toxicity issues that have stymied the expansion of propane and ammonia
use in the United States. In Switzerland, 50 percent of residential heat
pumps currently run on propane, and in Germany nearly 100 percent of
refrigerator/freezers run on isobutane."
In addition to being dirt cheap, environmentally sound, and potentially
more efficient than chlorine and/or fluorine based refrigerants
hydrocarbons work like hand and glove with standard oils and have none
of the acid forming properties (and are therefore more tolerant of moisture)
of the mainstream refrigerants of today.
So, people with R-22 units already have an alternative - just not
one that is legal, or agreeable to service techs who like to smoke
on the job. ;)
Of course, people are easily scared to death of 5 lbs of flammable
gas in their A/C tubes. Many of these same people then store gas
grills with 30 lb propane cylinders in their garage without worry.
I only skimmed the article, but nowhere did I see that propane is a "drop in
replacement for R-22".
I don't have the P/T/V charts for propane. So can someone with real
experience, like kj or noon answer?
Is it? And if it is, what sort of impact would it have on the business if
some agency suddenly said, "HEY! Let's legalize propane for R-22 repairs!"?
Ignore the environuts. They neglect to mention that europe uses the
little dorm refrigerators and don't hold as much as ours. They could
give a shit about safety or anything else. It's all about "natural"
refrigerant. Their goal is to eventually have us all living in mud huts.
Screw europe. Our ancestors left that backwards cesspool.
This won't be the last time you see one of these idiots posting the same
I worked on a freezer fishing boat a few years ago that had a self contained
deck freezer with two ten ton 208/3 Manurope R22 hermetic compressors,
running on Propane as the refrigerant.
Went to the Chevron and got a twenty pounder to top up one circuit and
pressures were in the R22 range. Charged it till the SG cleared and left
real quick. Found out after that automotive propane may have moisture in it.
I wouldn't want to be on board if they had a severe burnout that blows the
terminals off that tincan.
Probably not any significant degree. If anything, the ever increasing
complexity of HVAC systems will ensure that HVAC techs will be in great
demand, irrespective of the type of refrigerant (even if it was air).
Furthermore, if an average Joe should attempt to load in moisture-laden
non-refrigerant grade "BBQ gas" into his system, there will be plenty of
business for those with vacuum pumps to clean it all up. Finally, the
flammability concerns will scare some (and perhaps rightfully so) to
"leave all A/C work to the experts".
I could even envision profitable and worthy "inspect your evaporator
now before it leaks and becomes a blow torch" campaigns.
The ever changing "Freon" by Dupont et al. is only for *their* business
interest. IMHO, if anything, the every increasing demands on HVAC techs
to purchase new equipment raises the cost of doing business and reduces
their bottom line. I don't have any hard numbers on this, maybe someone
else that does could verify, or debunk, this opinion.
On Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:03:58 -0400
Yeah, there better not be air or moisture in there. I don't have any
data, but I assume that any oxygen in a propane laden environment will
eventually react with the propane (as I think is the case for
propane/methane released into the atmosphere, although it might take
about a decade to oxidize). Of course, water and CO2 are the by-products.
Refrigerant grade propane will have to be much more pure than run
of the mill "BBQ gas". In some places, common propane has a lot of
other hydrocarbons mixed in (butane, etc.).
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:24:12 -0400
It really doesn't matter. Digital or not, I've come to the conclusion
that there is not anything on worth a darn anyway. Hi-res crap is still
crap. The only reason they are pushing it quickly is because there are
some big players that want to use the current TV spectrum for something
else. None of it has anything to do with what people want as far as TV
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 15:12:51 -0400
I agree with you that Europe is under the spell of environuts - and we do
have our share of them here. For example, to ban R-22 on the basis of
it being a greenhouse gas is insane to the say the least - consider for
example the amount, in lbs, of methane that comes out of the average
person's rear (or as a result of beef production) versus how much R-22
their A/C leaks annually. In light of this, R-22 is a non-issue. However,
we in the USA have our own, different, brand of nuts ("safety nuts",
"greedy nuts", "stupid nuts"). All of these "useful idiots" are just
drones to be exploited by intelligent powerful interests who know better.
As far as us having broken away from and being superior to Europe goes,
I used to believe this, but I think the internal problems of our once
great USA are growing so fast, and becoming so obvious, that I fear we
are no longer the envy of the world, but rather becoming a laughing-stock.
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