I'm replacing my central air and have gotten estimates for one w/R22 and one w/ Puron. The last guy said he'd go w/R22 because of the higher costs of 410A and that it would cost more to repair. Also, he doesn't like it because of the higher pressure it's under, and he said the units were less reliable and would have more costly repairs.
I've looked at past posts, googled for info, but it's hard to get an objective opinion. I'm in Georgia so the AC gets a lot of use. I may stay in the house only 3 more years, and the repairs/costs would be someone else's headache, but then again, would the 410A unit be a better selling point in 2010? And if I end up staying until 2020, would I have to replace the AC again to the newer refrigerant?
From what I've read so far, R22 will be around for a long time, but I
don't want to be buying a dinosaur I may be living with for the next
10-15 years and which may ultimately cost more due to older technology.
Get another air conditioning contractor's opinion. R22 and R410 are both excellent refrigerants. But, time is taking a toll on R22. It will be around longer than you and I care about, but the cost will be higher. Hell everything costs more anyway, doesn't it.
And today, most R410 units are more efficient than their older counter parts.
The R410 units are just as reliable, and more efficient. Soon, the refrigerant cost for R22 may be higher than R410. Get two more opinions from contractor's.
Tell the last guy to go back to school, and learn how to deal with and get certified for R-410a. In the mean time, look for somebody that actually knows what they are doing. In 2 1/2 years, you won't have a choice. Rheem is shutting down their R-22 equipment assembly lines in December 2007. You can do what you want, but FWIW, I haven't even offered R-22 systems in the last year. R-22 is gone by the wayside.
Like I said, by January, 2010, you won't have a choice.
In 2004, the availability of R-22 was reduced by 35% and the wholesale price tripled. in Jan 2010, R-22 will be cut back an additional 65%, in 2015 R-22 will be cut back another 90%, so in 7 1/2 years, the availability of R-22 will be almost non existent. Yes there are some "drop-in" replacements, but using them will void any compressor manufacturers warranty. If in 5 years if your R-22 system needs to be gassed up, be prepared to pay $100/lb or more.
There are those on here that would disagree with me, but for the most part those who do disagree, don't have the training, or hands on experience with R-410a
waaay cool. I'm sittin on 4 pallets of R22. You paying attention Rich? this is better than the stock market! All the more reason to keep on installing R22 units!
You do the 410, I'll stay with R22 equipment til there aint no mo. :)
I don't know of any customers that are excited about the rising cost of R-22 either. Until 2000, the customer didn't have a choice, it was R-22 or nothing.
I could sell lesser brands also(Payne, Bryant, Luxaire, Armstrong, etc), but why would I want to??...... The other brands cost the same.
The only ones I am passing up are the ones that want it cheap. In the last 6 months there have been several contractors go out of business because they were selling 13 SEER equipment at 10 SEER prices.... there will be more to follow.
I said "for the most part", *NOT* "everybody", and certainly not everybody on here.
Speaking of.... not only are refrigerants changing... but....
Does everyone know that their analog T.V. will be junk come 2009? All of the broadcast stations will be converting 100% to digital. If you want to keep your analog T.V., it'll cost ya. You'll have to purchase a 'converter.'
Not to worry. I bet we'll eventually be going back to good old propane (R-290) and other hydrocarbons. Propane is a (currently illegal in the USA) drop in replacement for R-22.
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"Europeans, especially in the north, tend to see air conditioning as a luxury, and home air conditioning units are simply not the norm. Perhaps for this reason they are less concerned about the flammability and toxicity issues that have stymied the expansion of propane and ammonia use in the United States. In Switzerland, 50 percent of residential heat pumps currently run on propane, and in Germany nearly 100 percent of refrigerator/freezers run on isobutane."
In addition to being dirt cheap, environmentally sound, and potentially more efficient than chlorine and/or fluorine based refrigerants
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,hydrocarbons work like hand and glove with standard oils and have none of the acid forming properties (and are therefore more tolerant of moisture) of the mainstream refrigerants of today.
So, people with R-22 units already have an alternative - just not one that is legal, or agreeable to service techs who like to smoke on the job. ;)
Of course, people are easily scared to death of 5 lbs of flammable gas in their A/C tubes. Many of these same people then store gas grills with 30 lb propane cylinders in their garage without worry.
I only skimmed the article, but nowhere did I see that propane is a "drop in replacement for R-22".
I don't have the P/T/V charts for propane. So can someone with real experience, like kj or noon answer?
Is it? And if it is, what sort of impact would it have on the business if some agency suddenly said, "HEY! Let's legalize propane for R-22 repairs!"?
Ignore the environuts. They neglect to mention that europe uses the little dorm refrigerators and don't hold as much as ours. They could give a shit about safety or anything else. It's all about "natural" refrigerant. Their goal is to eventually have us all living in mud huts. Screw europe. Our ancestors left that backwards cesspool. This won't be the last time you see one of these idiots posting the same dribble.
It keeps changing. As of right now. They are gonna wait till all the people who have the 1950 9" black and white model of TV dies so they aren't deprived of viewing. Meaning there is no firm date anymore. AARP is actually fighting the change over. A few screwing it up for the majority again. They have an old black and white they need to swap back to radio. sheesh
Oil is the problem. R-22 is the better choice because of it. The POE oil is composed of alcohol, carboxylic acid and an inhibitor with water as a by-product. (Why it's Hygroscopic) Moisture or high temperatures can break the oil down and it will revert back to alcohol and carboxylic acid. Industry is trying to find a different oil. The pressure sucks too.
I worked on a freezer fishing boat a few years ago that had a self contained deck freezer with two ten ton 208/3 Manurope R22 hermetic compressors, running on Propane as the refrigerant. Went to the Chevron and got a twenty pounder to top up one circuit and pressures were in the R22 range. Charged it till the SG cleared and left real quick. Found out after that automotive propane may have moisture in it. I wouldn't want to be on board if they had a severe burnout that blows the terminals off that tincan.
Probably not any significant degree. If anything, the ever increasing complexity of HVAC systems will ensure that HVAC techs will be in great demand, irrespective of the type of refrigerant (even if it was air). Furthermore, if an average Joe should attempt to load in moisture-laden non-refrigerant grade "BBQ gas" into his system, there will be plenty of business for those with vacuum pumps to clean it all up. Finally, the flammability concerns will scare some (and perhaps rightfully so) to "leave all A/C work to the experts".
I could even envision profitable and worthy "inspect your evaporator now before it leaks and becomes a blow torch" campaigns.
The ever changing "Freon" by Dupont et al. is only for *their* business interest. IMHO, if anything, the every increasing demands on HVAC techs to purchase new equipment raises the cost of doing business and reduces their bottom line. I don't have any hard numbers on this, maybe someone else that does could verify, or debunk, this opinion.
Yeah, there better not be air or moisture in there. I don't have any data, but I assume that any oxygen in a propane laden environment will eventually react with the propane (as I think is the case for propane/methane released into the atmosphere, although it might take about a decade to oxidize). Of course, water and CO2 are the by-products.
Refrigerant grade pr> It keeps changing. As of right now. They are gonna wait till all the
It really doesn't matter. Digital or not, I've come to the conclusion that there is not anything on worth a darn anyway. Hi-res crap is still crap. The only reason they are pushing it quickly is because there are some big players that want to use the current TV spectrum for something else. None of it has anything to do with what people want as far as TV goes.
I agree with you that Europe is under the spell of environuts - and we do have our share of them here. For example, to ban R-22 on the basis of it being a greenhouse gas is insane to the say the least - consider for example the amount, in lbs, of methane that comes out of the average person's rear (or as a result of beef production) versus how much R-22 their A/C leaks annually. In light of this, R-22 is a non-issue. However, we in the USA have our own, different, brand of nuts ("safety nuts", "greedy nuts", "stupid nuts"). All of these "useful idiots" are just drones to be exploited by intelligent powerful interests who know better.
As far as us having broken away from and being superior to Europe goes, I used to believe this, but I think the internal problems of our once great USA are growing so fast, and becoming so obvious, that I fear we are no longer the envy of the world, but rather becoming a laughing-stock. :(
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