installing new systems ?

[jamesgangnc]

Presently all my systems are R22. I have 6 at 3 different properties. Most of them I installed myself over the years. I realize that I'm probably not going to be replacing any of them with another R22 system when the time comes. With the R22 systems I was able to get away with using regular silver solder and a hand torch on the lines. I know the new systems run at a higher pressure. Anyone use silver solder on the new refrigerant? Or am I going to have to break down and practice brazing?

[grumpy]

If silver braze don't do it for you close business you be better off

[Stormin Mormon]

The pressures are 1.6 times the equivilant for R22. I've heard that Stabrite

8 works fine. I do stick brazing now and again, when I have to work with old copper. It takes hotter torch, but it's the same general concept. You should be fine with silver bearing solder.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

[Steve]

You've "heard" because you have never done it and never worked with R410a.

[Steve]

15% silphos, oxyacetylene, purge with N2 while brazing, filter/drier, 400 micron vacuum, charge liquid by subcooling and superheat.

Because of the nature of R410a, if you don't do it right, you will have problems. You won't be able to "get away with" short cuts, or doing it cheap. I have been called to fix several systems that were less than 2 years old with major problems because the home owners thought they could "get by" with the same crap they did with R22.

[The Daring Dufas]

Back in the olden days of R22, I know a guy who would never pull a vacuum on a system, he would just blow R22 through it to blow the air out and he refused to spend the money for a safety disconnect outside or inside. I don't know what the guy is doing with R410a systems or if he is even installing or servicing any. o_O

TDD

[ilbebauck]

The old R22 systems and the new 410 a Systems dont required high temp soldering at the unit connections or at the cooling coil connections. While the internal operating pressures are higher than R22 , they are not so excessive that it demands brazing or silver soldering UNLESS you desire to . Otherwise, use low temp. solder and it will be just fine . Ive never had a leak using low temp. solder on ANY unit connectors and I use low temp. Staybrite . Further, if youre going to braze, you run the chance of annealing the copper and causing oxidation inside the copper , so if youre going to braze you better be purging with nitrogen to avoid this which requires a little more experience than the typical shade-tree A/C man such as yourself.

[Stormin Mormon]

You know, some folks have quiet self confidence, and nobility. They teach, share, and lift others up. Some people (often with feelings of inadequacy) try to get their height by pushing others down.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

[ilbebauck]

Whom might you be reffering to ?

[TimR]

I did, but had trouble getting it to stick.

How do I get all the duct tape residue cleaned off? I think that's my problem.

[The Daring Dufas]

Use the aluminum duct tape, it burns off easier. ^_^

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

Dear I'll, There was ONE sentence in my post, with text from ONE person. I'm referrring to.. . hint... five letters. First letter of the name is S.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Whom might you be reffering to ?

[PaxPerPoten]

Bullshit... Silver solder and /or brazing are a necessity due to equipment vibration. Plumbers solder doesn't cut it. water pressure are nominally 50 lbs and do not have the sharp spike and drops in pressure that cooling gases do. You have never had a leak because they called someone else for the repair.

. Otherwise, use low temp. solder

No shit... I guess you didn't note Steve's comments on using Nitrogen for *ANY* soldering or brazing of coolant lines. I suggest that you and Stormy both attend a hands on class for Eutectics connecting of cooling lines. Maybe Steve would have the patience to educate you!

, so if youre going to

[ilbebauck]

Rubbish. Low temp (430 f.) Staybrite solder has been used for donkeys years on residential a/c systems on the liquid and suction lines and has stood up well even under prolonged very high head pressures . The 3 year Trade School i went to taught such as do all the books. High temp brazing is required only for the compressor . You can braze the residential a/c unit connections if you want, but it is not necessary . AND...plumbers solder is 95/5 and 50/50 . On a 'commercial' Condensing Unit, I would go with brazing ... silver solder or sil foss on everything . And the residential a/c units ive installed were for customers who continued to use me for my entire HVAC career...again...without any connection leaks that i originally made . Stop the guffaw .

[jamesgangnc]

Thanks guys. It seemed logical that I could continue to silver solder but = I figured no harm in seeing if others think so too.

Some of my r22 systems I soldered are quite a few years old and still no le= aks. And I got the same story on them from some people, "it going to start= leaking". If it didn't leak when I pulled a vacuum it never leaked.

I like the tranes I have because they used teflon rings for the compressor = connections inside the units. New teflon rings and you're ready to go. An= d there's only about 3 sizes on the residential units so it's easy to keep = a few handy. Wish they did that on the reversing valve.

[John Rhosos]

Long before silver solder or sil-floss was on the market, we used 95/5 solder on refrigeration joints. This worked just fine for R-12 as well as R-22 units. Granted, silver solder/Sil-floss is much better but a good weld with 95/5 worked well then and will still work today. I don't think I'd use it on the new 410A systems.

Our organization bought into 3 of the 9 R-22 machines that were built with Catepillar V-8 Engines driving the open drive compressors. They were built by a company by the name of EnChill and after 9 machines ran out of the country to Europe where they use Rolls-Royce engines instead of Catepillar. Soft solder was used on many connections and of course, the vibration of the engine opened leaks on a regular basis. The vibration of the machine caused issues with the engine controls as well.

This 450T machine held over 800 lbs of R-22 so any leak was considered catastrophic. I finally tired of fixing soft solder and used sil-floss on all of the copper connections, replacing most of it with

304SS flare fittings. Never had any leaks on the three odd machines though one of the more problematic of the three was replaced with a Trane Ice Bank machine, a great choice.

All things considered, sil-floss/silver solder was the best choice for a weld. There is a paste (I think it was called Force) that I used even though sil-floss doesn't require paste and I liberally pasted the pipe and fittings. Using a wet rag as soon as the weld was make, I wiped off the pipe which left a nice golden colored weld without the black staining you get from Sil-Floss. It gave the job a term we used to call, "Shining the job" which contractors didn't want to see you spending time making the work "look nice".

Before I sound older than the Widow's Son of the tribe of Naphalai, I'd better quit here.

John

[John Rhosos]

This group has long been trashed with the folks you describe. There was a time when questions were asked and most answered with civility. The current attitude does nothing for the trade. I wouldn't hire a service man who spent any time debasing all the others before him/her. I would only be interested in results and a reasonable price to fix problems.

I can remember a time whenever I visited a dentist he took one look in my mouth and said, "Good Grief! Who was the butcher who worked on your mouth?" After hearing that enough times and not from a few most patients realized that they didn't want a dentist who spends any time enamoring himself at the expense of other dentists and those who bark the most are best be avoided.

The HVAC trade was one where technicians helped rather than ridiculed each other. Today too many are like gossiping housewives. Again, too bad.

John

[Stormin Mormon]

You sound like you've had some experience. That's a lot of refrigerant in the system, I'm sure they would not like to have it all leak out.

As to wet rag the fittings. The flux needs to be removed, or it will keep corroding the metal away. Yes, it makes it pretty, but it also has a very important reason. So the fitting doesn't corrode out in a couple years.

You sure you didn't come over on the boat with Lehi and Sariah in 600 BC?

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

Long before silver solder or sil-floss was on the market, we used 95/5 solder on refrigeration joints. This worked just fine for R-12 as well as R-22 units. Granted, silver solder/Sil-floss is much better but a good weld with 95/5 worked well then and will still work today. I don't think I'd use it on the new 410A systems.

Our organization bought into 3 of the 9 R-22 machines that were built with Catepillar V-8 Engines driving the open drive compressors. They were built by a company by the name of EnChill and after 9 machines ran out of the country to Europe where they use Rolls-Royce engines instead of Catepillar. Soft solder was used on many connections and of course, the vibration of the engine opened leaks on a regular basis. The vibration of the machine caused issues with the engine controls as well.

This 450T machine held over 800 lbs of R-22 so any leak was considered catastrophic. I finally tired of fixing soft solder and used sil-floss on all of the copper connections, replacing most of it with

304SS flare fittings. Never had any leaks on the three odd machines though one of the more problematic of the three was replaced with a Trane Ice Bank machine, a great choice.

All things considered, sil-floss/silver solder was the best choice for a weld. There is a paste (I think it was called Force) that I used even though sil-floss doesn't require paste and I liberally pasted the pipe and fittings. Using a wet rag as soon as the weld was make, I wiped off the pipe which left a nice golden colored weld without the black staining you get from Sil-Floss. It gave the job a term we used to call, "Shining the job" which contractors didn't want to see you spending time making the work "look nice".

Before I sound older than the Widow's Son of the tribe of Naphalai, I'd better quit here.

John

[Stormin Mormon]

Well, it only takes a couple good folks on a list, to keep things going. I hope you post again, and often.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

This group has long been trashed with the folks you describe. There was a time when questions were asked and most answered with civility. The current attitude does nothing for the trade. I wouldn't hire a service man who spent any time debasing all the others before him/her. I would only be interested in results and a reasonable price to fix problems.

I can remember a time whenever I visited a dentist he took one look in my mouth and said, "Good Grief! Who was the butcher who worked on your mouth?" After hearing that enough times and not from a few most patients realized that they didn't want a dentist who spends any time enamoring himself at the expense of other dentists and those who bark the most are best be avoided.

The HVAC trade was one where technicians helped rather than ridiculed each other. Today too many are like gossiping housewives. Again, too bad.

John

[ilbebauck]

Youre correct John. The typical HVAC Tech today is a guy with personal problems , an 'F this / F that' attitude, and sees his colleages as competitors ... as if there isnt enough customers to go around . It wasnt so much this way when i started out in 1974, but today, its a vicious , querolous, indecorous place for Male gossipers and slanderers.