On Microclimates

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Correct. Name your religion.
The basis of all science is that the theory must be "Testable". God based creation beliefs are not testable. It is a belief that cannot be testable.

You are mixing up Philosophy with Religion. I see philosophy as a way life. One can have Philosophical views with out religion. Religion in my book is a belief in one or more gods

So do I. Power structures that are harmful to a modern society.

Spirits, ghost... Oh brother, belief in more none existent creatures. After life... Again a Non testable item that belongs in the world of religion. After life's explain nothing. If it is not testable it is not science!
I see the "soul" is biological chemical reaction of the human brain that evolved over eons of time. When humans die they become compost (testable).
Where does the WHY come in when it comes to ghost, spirits and the non existent after life. This is the realm of religion, not science or philosophy.

Philosophy is not a branch of Religion. Religion is a branch of Philosophy. It is not a two way street. Religion may need philosophy, but philosophy does not need religion.
I will agree philosophy can assign moral values to legal maters and a way of life.

Again wrong, one can enjoy the aspects of gardening without a religion. Landscaping is a subset of gardening. Gardening has nothing to with religion. Atheist and the religious alike can enjoy gardening as way of life.

Again one does not need a religion to find moral values. As an atheist I create my own rules in which I live by. Not from some ancient mythological book.
Example my personal definition of a good person: a person that benefits the tribe in which they live within. An evil person is one that harms the tribe in which they life within.

When one removes the presuppositions that a god exist. Then many philosophical views will change. Religions are institutions that hold back advancement in societies. Galileo Persecuted by the religious. Slavery was good because the Holy Bible did not speak out against it. Black and Women's rights, Gay rights all persecuted by a moral "religious" institutions. I see religious instructions as being harmful to those that want different life and even passing laws that protect the environment.
My view on life goes like this: I believe in maximum personal freedom as long as one does not directly or indirectly physically harm another.
Therefore, slavery is wrong in my book, women and gay rights are fine with me. If you want to snort cocaine, fine by me. If your drive drunk and harm another pay the price in jail.
And also part of that freedom is believing in a god if you wish. However when a religious belief is against the freedom of others, I will be against that church.
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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Nad R wrote:

Mine is a tiny one named Asatru. It would be amazing if you'd ever seen the word. The nearest historically linked faith of any size is Hindu. There are plenty of signs of ancient Asatru in modern Anglo-Germanic civilization - Regional Thing evolved into jury and country fair. National Thing evolved into parliment. The days of the week got the names of the major deities. Number of members is a very different story. There are tens of thousands of us in the world. Extremely tiny.
None of the heathen/pagan polytheist religions of the world have a conflict with science. They all lack the error of biblical inerrancy or literal truth in their stories. The largest is Hindu, then Shinto and so on down into smaller and smaller population faiths. National Geographic has tended to call them "animist" rather than polythiest. Generally polytheist faiths don't care whether you believe if the deities of their pantheon exist. It's not about that.
There's also Buddhism and probably other deity-irrelevant faiths. I don't know if Taoism or Confucicism fall in this category. It's been too long since I've read the Analects or the Tao Te Ching.

And the basis of most religions is that which is not testable. Which puts them not in conflict.

Exactly. Whence not in conflict.

No. You are trying to define religion as only those two that you disapprove of. Not a game I'll play. Playing that game doesn't make your restricted definition either correct or useful. The JCI folks want to claim to define the space, but they do not define the space.

One can. It's called the agnostic approach.

It is irrelevant that you allow the JCI folks to define the space and then that you reject them. That's a optional element in the list of features.

They are overlapping sets. Neither is a subset of the other,

And that's only a part of why they are overlapping sets with neither a subset of the other.

For millennia relgions have taught gardening as a path of life. Gardening does in fact have much to do with religion. Gardening is possible without religion. Not the same thing. For that matter religion is possible without gardening. Who would want such a religion.
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Ok?
I see your point of view. However, I do know that many people live with contradictions and dilemmas in life. I am not one of them. My mind is more of a hierarchal index. I refuse to live with contradictions. All religions have a creation theory that is not testable belief that contradicts that of science such as Evolution and the big bang theories.
I looked up yours, http://www.religioustolerance.org/asatru.htm **** Creation Story: A poem Voluspa (Prophecy of the Seeress) contains an Ásatrú story of the creation of the universe. Between Muspelheim (The Land of Fire) and Niflheim the Land of Ice was an empty space called Ginnungigap. The fire and ice moved towards each other; when they collided, the universe came into being. Odin, Vili and Ve later created the world from the body of a giant that they had slain. ****
To believe that science and religion can coexist is at best a contradiction in it's self. Again, All religions have a creation theory not a testable belief that contradicts that of science: Evolution and the big bang theories

Not correct. All religions have views that contract that of science from the origins of the human race to the beginnings of the universe. Many religious may believe that science and religion can coexist, but as an atheist I reject this view.

Wrong they are in conflict. I provided example already.

I am defining religion, and it has nothing with the TWO I disapprove of. I disapprove of ALL religions and they are many many more than two religions. Your are trying to merge two different worlds like oil and water.

Two way street here, I can also claim your views are irrelevant.

Not overlapping, everything can be ordered in a top down hierarchal order. Including set theory. Your world of just using venn diagrams is a non ordered world. If it cannot be ordered then their is a paradox in the structure.

For millennia religions have taught nonsense because they could not make sense of their world, therefore a GOD must be the reason.
Enjoy your delusional religious world. It may be better to live in a world of delusions and be have happy life than know the truth and live in a world of harsh realities.
I see your point of point of view. It must come from the Noris God... Loki.
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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Nad R wrote:

Without biblical inerrancy there is no contradiction. There's a story told by science, subject to revision as the art evolves. There's a story told by mystics, subject to revision as the poetry and symbolism evolves. One attempts literal truth but never gets there. One makes no attempt at all of literal truth but rather poetic meaning.

Nice write up. Thanks for the pointer!

It says - The universe came into existance as a part of natural processes. Life is within the universe as a part of those natural processes. The world was formed from existing material not something from nothing creation.
Not that it matters because the story is poetic and symbolic not literal.

I started my career working on the space program with real space scientists. Most of them understood that science and religion can coexist just fine. Some managed to do so with Christianity. I never did get that part. So you can reject that science and religion can coexist, but plenty of full time professional scientists do not.
It's been nice. Thanks for the discussion!
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I guess, we will just have to agree that we do not agree.
Enjoy life Doug :)
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Nad R wrote:

Freedom of religion must mean any religion. Freedom of religion must include freedom from religion.

Peter Sellers as Chance the Gardener in the move "Being There". Enjoy the gardening to enjoy the garden.
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There are dozens and dozens if not hundreds of religions in this world. Only evolution stands out over others as an explanation of our existence without some other supernatural being creating humans. Theory of evolution is what I believe in that seems the reasonable for our existence on this planet. Not because of one religion being poisonous.
I see humans as the cause for the destruction of our environment and atmosphere of this planet and no god to save us. Therefore only humans must make decisions that can save this planet for future human survival.
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Lipids in algae. Stay tuned.

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In article

Rats! The article has to do with rainfall, not temps. But still, it is an interesting article that relates to gardening and agriculture.
Scientific American March, 2011
A Shifting Band of Rain
By mapping equatorial rainfall since A.D. 800, scientists have figured out how tropical weather may change through 2100
By Julian P. Sacks and Conor L. Myhrvold
THE FIRST INDICATION THAT OUR EXPEDITION WAS NOT GOING AS PLANNED was the abrupt sputter and stop of the boat's inboard engine at 2 A.M. The sound of silence had never been less peaceful. Suddenly, crossing the open ocean in a small fishing vessel from the Marshall Islands in the North Pacific Ocean seemed an unwise choice. A journey to a scientific frontier had led us to a different frontier altogether, a vast darkness punctuated by the occasional lapping wave.
We are climate scientists, and our voyage (which ended safely) was one of many intended to help us do what at first glance seems impossible: reconstruct rainfall history back in time, across an ocean. By tracing that history,we can gain a better understanding of how the ongoing buildup of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere, rising air temperatures and changes in tropical precipitation are likely to alter future climate patterns. We have traveled far and wide to numerous islands across the Pacific Ocean. ----- IN BRIEF The tropical rain band that wraps the globe north of the equator migrates as atmospheric temperature changes, altering rainfall patterns worldwide.
Data from sediments in Pacific island lakes show that the band is at 3N to 10N, as far north as it has ever been in the last 1,200 years.
At current warming rates, the band could shift north by five degrees by 2100, drying out farmland for millions of people in Ecuador, Colombia, and elsewhere.
Multiyear drought conditions in the southwest U.S. could persist as that area becomes more like the semiarid region of northern Mexico. -----
Some present-day climate patterns are well known, such as the El Nino and La Nina circulations in the Pacific. A lesser known but equally important pattern is the primary precipitation feature on the planet: a band of heavy rainfall that circles the globe in the tropics and migrates north or south seasonally with the angle of the sun. The area in which it moves is known as the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ).
Any change in the earth's temperature, as a result of incoming solar radiation or greenhouse gases, can affect the rain band, which provides the precipitation that feeds equatorial agriculture. The band also plays a central role in the monsoons of Asia, Africa and India and the large convection cells that transport heat from the equator toward the poles. The frequency and intensity of El Nino and La Nina events and the strength and duration of hurricane seasons in the Pacific and Atlantic can all be influenced by variations in the band's position. Changes in rainfall resulting from a permanent shift of the band would dramatically alter the equatorial environment, with effects reaching worldwide. And we have good reason to believe the band is shifting.
Until recently, climate scientists did not know whether the current annual range of the band's midlinefrom 3N to 10N latitude over the Pacific Oceanwas its historical range. But now field measurements from latitudes bracketing the ITCZ have allowed our colleagues and us to define how the band has moved over the past 1,200 years. A large shift of five degrees northwardabout 550 kilometersoccurred from about 400 years ago until today. Discovery of that shift led us to a startling realization: small increases in the greenhouse effect can fundamentally alter tropical rainfall. We can now predict where the ITCZ will move through 2100 as the atmosphere warms further. We can also predict whether rainfall may rise or fall across the world's equatorial zones, the probable effects across higher latitudes in Asia, Central America and the U.S. southern tier, and what those changes might mean for weather and food production. Some places are likely to benefit, but many others, we fear, will face dry times.
MEDIEVAL UNKNOWN
UNTIL WE BEGAN mapping rainfall history, scientists had little data about where the ITCZ had been during the past millennium. The band hovers near the equator, but it can be tens or hundreds of kilometers wide, depending on local conditions and seasonal sunshine. Because the zone is highly pronounced over the Pacific, that region is ideal for tracking its movement. And because the rain band girds the earth, Pacific trends indicate global changes.
Scientists can profile the sun's strength from isotopes such as carbon 14 in tree rings and beryllium 10 in ice cores and can reconstruct the historic profile of world-wide greenhouse gases from air bubbles trapped in tubular cores of ice extracted from polar regions. By comparing solar output and greenhouse gas levels with the ITCZ's position over centuries, we can infer how tropical rainfall might change in the 21st century in response to rising greenhouse gas emissions.
Clever investigators have identified many different indicators of global temperature during the past millennium. Two periods stand out. Around A.D. 800, global temperatures were similar to those in the late 1800s. Temperatures then rose during the Medieval Warm Period (A.D.800 - 1200), reaching levels similar to 20th-century temperatures. They gradually settled and fell during the Little Ice Age (A.D. 1400-1850). In the past two decades the sun's output has remained essentially constant, yet both temperature and levels of carbon dioxidethe most abundant manmade greenhouse gashave become significantly higher than at any point in the past 1,200 years.
Atmospheric scientists knew few specifics about past tropical climate, however, when we began our work. Seafloor sediments, which can provide exquisite records of climate on multithousand-year timescales, accumulate too slowly to record much information about the past 1,000 years. Many corals produce annual bands, but the creatures rarely live longer than 300 years, providing no records from 300 to 1,000 years ago.
Mapping rainfall would allow us to fill in the missing information about the ITCZ's position over the past millennium. Usually determining rainfall once it has hit the ocean is a lost cause. But small islands scattered across the Pacific have enclosed lakes and ponds that can reveal the history. In the past six years we have collected dozens of sediment cores from the bottoms of such waters in some of the most remote, exotic Pacific islands. The locations span a range of latitudes above, below and within the current band and fully across the Pacific. We can define where the rain band was during a given time period by pinpointing places that experienced intense rainfalls in that period at various latitudes. Simultaneous rainfall increases and decreases, northward or southward, indicate a common, oceanwide shift in the band.
Fieldwork is an adventure fraught with setbacks, equipment issues, language barriers and difficulty getting to the sediment-coring locations. For example, by the time we arrived in the capital city of Majuro, the local airline, Air Marshall Islands (affectionately known to locals as "Air Maybe"), had two broken planes in its fleet of two. The two-day trip mentioned earlier to test a local entrepreneur's modified fishing boat that looked alarmingly unseaworthy ended when the engines died on our overnight return from a neighboring atoll.
To retrieve an undisturbed sediment core, we push, pound and screw long tubes into a lake's bottom. Just about every site we have cored has a unique sediment sequence. Sometimes we find bright-red gelatinous layers several meters thick made up of cyanobacteria, as in the Washington Island lake. Other times the sediment is brown mud rich in hydrogen sulfide (read: it stinks!), containing mangrove leaf fragments and the occasional layer of bivalve shells, as in Palau.
As we slog through mud on foot and row across shallow water, we push a long pole into the sediment to test depths and to see whether obstacles lurk. It is not unusual to abort a core attempt because it hits rocks, ancient coral, sand or roots.
Because the rate of sediment deposition is highly variable, we do not know how deep we need to go. Generally speaking, one meter of sediment stretches back at least several hundred years: nine meters of sediment from Washington Island, for example, spanned 3,200 years. When possible, we try to hit "bedrock" at the bottom of a core: deposited sand, coral or volcanic rock marking the time when the lake first began accumulating sediment, so that we can obtain the most complete record of the historical climate.
THE SECRET LIES IN LIPIDS
RECONSTRUCTING RAINFALL is our goal, but we have to measure the ecosystem's characteristics in the present climate to know what the same measurements of the past environment reveal about the past climate. We therefore collect water samples at different depths to determine the chemical composition and hydrogen isotope ratio of the water, as well as traits of the algal and microbial populations. We trap phytoplankton, zooplankton and microbes on fine, glass-fiber filters, then immediately store them on ice so we can later analyze their lipid composition. Vegetation samples are collected from the immediate vicinity to evaluate their lipids, too.
After we carefully raise the cores out of the lake bottom, we have to get the samples back to the lab without disturbing the sediment. To avoid mixing a core's layers, we painstakingly "section" the uppermost sediments that are particularly soft into one-centimeter slices and store each slice in labeled plastic bags.
Once we have sectioned cores on site, we journey back to Seattle to our lab at the University of Washington, hauling stacks of ice chests filled with sediment and water and long cardboard boxes filled with the segments of cores that did not require bagging. By measuring the two stable isotopes of hydrogen in the lipids of algae preserved in successively deeper layers of sediment, and dating the samples back in time, we can infer the amount of rainfall that occurred when the flora lived [see box on opposite page].
WET REGIONS BECOME DRY
OVER SUCCESSIVE YEARS we have added more data to an increasingly accurate map thai pinpoints the ITCZ's historical locations, and we continually update it with our latest results. Although our findings from the most recent expeditionto Kosrae in Micronesiawill take a few more months to analyze, the results from many trips, : combined with data from colleagues, indicate that small changes in atmospheric heat were accompanied by large changes in tropical rainfall during the Little Ice Age, drying previously wet regions such as Palau and bringing abundant rain to previously arid regions such as the Galapagos Islands. When solar energy reaching the top of the atmosphere decreased by just two tenths of a percent for about 100 years, the ITCZ migrated south toward the equator by 500 kilometers.
That sensitivity does not bode well for our future. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change projects that because of primarily tailpipe and smokestack emissions, the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration will rise to double pre-industrial levels by mid-century and triple by 2100, causing an increase in atmospheric heating two to three times larger than changes that occurred at the end of the Little Ice Age from increased sunlight alone.
During the Little Ice Age the rain band's midline remained south of 5N. Today it hovers between 3N and 10N. Recent increases in greenhouse gases threaten to move the band's center another five degrees northward550 kilometersby 2100. This new location (8N to 15N) would significantly change the intensity of rainfall in many regions [see box on opposite page}.
Evidence for potential changes comes from our findings on the islands. Washington Island, located at 5N, now receives three meters of rain a year, but 400 years ago it received less than one meter of rain and experienced more intense evaporation. Conversely, the highlands of San Cristobal Island at 1S in the desertlike Galapagos archipelago were substantially wetter during the Little Ice Age.
Evidence from archaeologists is also helpful. They have concluded that on islands across Indonesia and the South Pacific, a marked increase in the construction of fortifications coincided with the last large southward shift in the ITCZ's position. The bulk of fortificationsstone structures to fend off intrusions from neighboring societieswere built from the onset to the end of the Little Ice Age. As the rain band moved south, islands left in its northern wake dried out, perhaps forcing inhabitants to flee to more southern islands, raising fears of invasion among local peoples there.
Today desalination technology and shipping ease strict dependence on rainfall, but a move of the rain band five degrees further north would endanger the hundreds of millions of people who live near the equator and depend on subsistence agriculture, not to mention tropical biodiversity. Most nations in the current range are developing nations. They are likely to experience great population increases during this century and are unlikely to have the resources to successfully adapt. Rainfall declines, on one hand, and flooding, on the other, across decades or even a few years would reduce crop yields, leading to localized food shortages, political unrest and ultimately geographic displacement.
Areas directly in the ITCZ for the first time (10N to 15N), such as El Salvador and Manila in the Philippines, would receive more rain annually and would become more humid. Regions no longer under the rain band's direct influence (3N to 8N) would receive less rain and become more arid. Whether this drying effect would be countered in certain places by the strength of the Asian and Indian monsoons is subject to debate.
LESS COFFEE, FEWER BANANAS OVERALL, WET AREAS in northern Indonesia,Malaysia, the Philippines, Micronesia, Thailand and Cambodia would miss a good portion of the ITCZ rains they now receive. Crop varieties ideal for today's growing conditions would no longer thrive. For example, coffee plants, much like vineyards, need a lot of rain at the beginning of the growing season and require more than 1.8 meters in total to develop suitable beans.
In Central America, Ecuador and Colombia would be left in the ITCZ's wake and become drier. Colombia's increased urbanization may help it cope because its economy is no longer as highly dependent on agriculture. Colombia, however, is the world's third-largest coffee producer, and as in Indonesia, less precipitation could affect long-term coffee yields. Most growing regions for the bean, which are below 8N latitude, would likely suffer by the mid- to late 21st century. Productive areas in the south and along the coast are most at risk because they will be the farthest from the rain band.
The future of Ecuador's banana industry may be bleak. Good bananas require warm temperatures and 2 to 2.5 meters of annual rainfall, but Ecuador is already well below the current ITCZ and barely meeting the minimum precipitation threshold. A shift would likely decrease rainfall to a meter a year or less by 2100, shutting down the country's banana industry. A large drop in banana yield can happen quite fast. In the Philippines at the beginning of 2010, roughly half of the plantations produced small and underweight bananas that were useless commercially, because of an abnormal dry season.
Subsistence agriculture would also be affected in all the aforementioned locations. Even if people gravitate toward cities, a lack of regional food sources is a recipe for disaster.
If the band continues migrating north at the average rate it has been over the past 400 years, substantial rainfall changes in the continental U.S. are likely, too. Some changes may have already begun. The south-western U.S. is enduring a severe multiyear drought that is likely to represent the new normal pattern in the 21st century should greenhouse gas levels continue to rise apace. Higher temperatures, and a continuing northward shift of the rain band, threaten to shift the subtropical dry zone that lies to its north, which currently stretches across northern Mexico, into this part of the country.
Scientists are unclear whether a northward shift would affect the frequency or size of hurricanes or monsoons. We also have yet to determine any possible effects on the patterns of El Nino and La Nina.
BETTER MODELS COMING
MORE WORK needs to be done before alarm bells can be sounded with confidence. Computer-based climate models have not accurately reproduced past and present rainfall patterns in the tropics. If modelers can use data from sediment cores and other sources to produce patterns that more closely approximate those that are known, the world could have greater confidence in their projections of future rainfall. This type of experiment is being pursued by our colleagues at the University of Washington and elsewhere.
We will continue to study sediments from tropical islands in the ITCZ, and to its north and south, to more precisely define the rain band's position throughout the past millennium and to predict where it will be in generations to come.
MORE TO EXPLORE :
Proxy-Based Reconstructions of Hemispheric and Global Surface Temperature Variations over the Past Two Millennia. Michael E. Mann et al. in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA, Vol. 105, No. 36, pages 13252-13257; September 2,2008.
Southward Movement of the Pacific Intertropical Convergence Zone AD 1400-1850. Julian P. Sachs et al. in Nature Geoscience, Vol. 2, No. 7, pages 519-525; July 2009.
Paleoclimates and the Emergence of Fortifications in the Tropical Pacific Islands. Julie S. Field and Peter V. Lape in Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, Vol. 29, No. 1, pages 113-124; March 2010.
Paleoclimate research at the Sachs Lab: http://faculty.washington.edu/jsachs
Illustration by George Retseck (globes) and Jen Christiansen (graph)
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Algae: Rain Gauge of the Ages

Algae obtain all their hydrogen from the water in which they live.
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See article reproduced in one of these posts. <http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID 037A5D -A938-150E-A93883414B7F0000>
October 2006 Scientific American Magazine
Impact from the Deep

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Are you kidding?
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FarmI wrote:

Sadly no. The fundamentalist/creationist bible belt of the USA is way beyond anything that that you or I are likely to meet in the flesh. Think of the child of Pauline Hanson and Fred Nile on crystal meth. I am not having a go at religion or Christianity in general but this particular mob are crazy, ignorant and would love to see the world made into a theocracy, with them in charge of course - Christian Taliban.
We are way OT so I think I will stop now.
D
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Remember, we didn't just get criminals, we got the religious wackos too.
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- Billy
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in
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No.
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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:-)) I'm amazed too - and especially that so much of the compulsory subject matter didn't seem to penetrate some skulls.
I was listening to a radio quizz the other night and the question asked was: What was the relationship between Ophelia and Laertes and give the name of the Shakespearian play in which they appeared?
The answers astounded me. In the end the compere had to give so many hints about the realtionship that he effectivley gave the person the answer, but then she couldn't manage to produce the name of the play. She said Grapes of Wrath. Another guess was something just as equally impossible and by an another American author although that guess was actually a play rather than a novel.
Of the actual Shakespearean plays the offerings were Romeo and Juliet, Othello (at least there was one tragedy mentioned), Much ado about nothing, Midsummer's Night Dream and a couple of others. It was gobbsmackingly depressing that it took so long and that so many people couldn't answer or bowed out and even attempt to answer.
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FarmI wrote:

There is a difference between not knowing your Shakespeare and voting for candidates who want to invade a country that you cannot find on a map and know nothing about.
David
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Indeed, but then we had moved to discussing retention of skool larned material.
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