Boise "I" Beams

[Don]

In Florida the determination seems to be whether the structure is sprinklered or not. I foresee a day when all new construction will be sprinklered.

[John]

In a building with people in it, it is a matter of retaining a fire long enough for evacuation. Huf Haus in Germany have wooden suspended floors and a cement screed on top to give that solid feel - and it also retains fire as well.

[RicodJour]

I never said there was anything wrong with wood beams per se. I believe that municipal buildings, and schools in particular, should be held to a higher standard. The idea of a one room wood schoolhouse is romantic, but there are other factors and objectives in play.

There is inarguably a need for public shelters in emergencies and unless you want to build separate structures, or camp out in the Superdome, municipal buildings are the logical candidates. Since there are far more schools than town halls, and most people would agree that if anyone deserves the extra "protection" children are again the logical candidates....school's it is.

R

[RicodJour]

What is the benefit of that system over a precast concrete plank floor system?

R

[John]

Lighter and probably cheaper too. Also sound or thermal insulating materials can be inserted in the voids. Gives thermal mass too in a lightweight wooden building. No heavy cranes needed, etc. A wooden "I" beam can have one man fit and lift. Try that with concrete or steel.

[Don]

I must be getting alzheimers cause I don't remember saying masonry construction is so expensive. In fact, 90% of the homes built in Florida over the past 40 years or so are masonry, especially the most inexpensive homes.

It's not like the

Yours do the same thing Rico and it is up to each of us to recognize them and deal with them accordingly. You happen to be pro-gov't and I'm not and neither one of us is likely to change the other. Another one of your pet peeves is taking debate personally. I don't think you're a noob at this stuff so I'm perplexed why you allow your emotions to control you so.

It makes it difficult to

Yeah, we're all victims of our experiences but the bigger issue is why my baggage is YOUR concern?

Its impossible for me to understand the rationale behind the idea of spending stolen money well. The fact is, stolen money is rarely spent well and complacency by the victims of the theft sanctions the thieves to steal even more. Haven't you been paying attention to the news articles in your city paper about the continuous debacles associated with the construction of public schools? If not, then maybe you should.

A brand new public shelter was completed in early 2004 in Punta Gorda, FL and promptly failed when hurricane Charlie knocked on its door in Aug of that year.. It was constructed of concrete and steel.

Of the 150+ wooden homes on the islands of Useppa and North Captiva, which were directly in the eye of the storm, only one completely failed and I posted it right here in this group because I did the restoration drawing for it, the balance sustained varying degrees of damage or none at all.

The assumption that masonry and steel is inherently better then wood is wrong.

How about in IN? I have yet to hear anyone say, "The

Of course its not and I never said it was.

[Don]

Because steel bar joists are NEVER maunfactured wrong and masonry construction NEVER fails, silly! What happened here is a manufacturing defect and people are getting all up on their hindlegs that the method of construction is wrong. To further complicate this the building is in England, where there is the possiblity that they do stuff different than we do here in the US.

[Ron]

"RicodJour" wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Rubbish, sized properly timber/wood is quite appropriate, There are many ways to engineer for strength, fire rate a building, etc without discounting the use of timber.

Nope it's product was not up to mfgr'ing standards they cannot likely tell. ron

[Matt Whiting]

What is the extra protection that steel or concrete provides over wood?

Matt

[Matt Barrow]

So instead they used wood; oh, that's rational.

[Matt Barrow]

I find it appalling that you need to explain this.

[RicodJour]

You'd mentioned that wood works just fine if all other issues are factored in and compensated for. That means risk and longevity factors as well as the hard costs of construction. My point was that simply stating a particular construction system doesn't necessarily indicate the effectiveness and efficiency of the complete building.

As far as the blind spots in our psyches, of course. I have them in spades. Some of them I'm aware of, some of them I'm not. A self-respecting blind spot doesn't advertise it's presence. In this thread, you advertised yours. You brought up governmental spending in a thread about a private sector manufacturing defect. I merely pointed that out.

I'm not pro-government anymore than I am pro-death. They're just a facts of life. You can bitch about them all you want, they're not going away.

I'm not taking this personally, and not sure why you'd say so. It's not about you and me.

Emotional? On this stuff? Please. Vaguely annoyed that you miss no chance to harp on the same government issues - sure. It gets old. Let's flip it around. Say I was a born again and had heard the word. Say I didn't miss a chance to throw in a comment about how sinners were ruining architecture and building, someone doing shoddy work was a blasphemy against the lord, etc. How long do you think it would take before you were stomping all over me for my harping? Five posts, maybe

- if you were in a patient mood.

Your comment about governmental overspending in municipal buildings has nothing to do with why the joists failed. Unless, of course, you can accurately extrapolate your opinions with the US government to a school building in the UK, and can tie the joist failure from a presumably independent private sector manufacturer to political graft or something like that.

When you bring unrelated stuff up in a thread, it becomes part of the discussion, doesn't it? I didn't realize there were things that were off limits. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, pick a fight or anything like that. That part about pathways burnt into the brain is very interesting stuff - if you aren't already aware of the mechanism, you should read about it. It's curious how efficient brain activity apparently inhibits creative thought patterns. I thought you'd be interested.

Ever hear of Robin Hood. :)

There are debacles and unjustness everywhere. Focusing on that is not healthy. I prefer to attempt to maintain a more positive aspect,. I have more than my share of cynicism, so sometimes it's an effort - it's worth the effort.

My aunt and uncle are in Punta Gorda, so I heard some of the horror stories. I'm hoping I won't have to hear any new ones.

I'm not sure which public shelter in Punta Gorda you're referring to - was it the one in Arcadia that was finished just before Charley? That's the only one I know of that failed and I thought that was a pre-engineered steel building with some masonry infill, not concrete. I'm not aware of a recently completed concrete facility that had anything other than superficial/minor damage.

Better in relation to what? Concrete is better in impact resistance, steel is easier to accurately engineer, moment connections are more easily designed in reinforced concrete and steel, termites don't eat concrete and steel, etc. If I wanted to argue the superiority of wood for the structural integrity and longevity of a building, I wouldn't choose stick framing and I wouldn't choose trusses and engineered joists. Timber framing performs better in fires than steel if the wood members are of sufficient size.

Don't take this stuff personally, Don, it's not meant that way. They're just my opinions and observations. Take it for what it's worth.

R

[RicodJour]

I haven't seen too many schools built by small crews. The size of the building requires cranes of one sort or another. Sound transmission, except at very low frequencies (structurally transmitted sounds such as machine vibrations), decreases with increased mass. Thermal insulating materials and thermal mass are not necessary between occupied floors. The precast plank floor would go up faster than a framed floor with a lightweight concrete topping. Et Cetera.

R

[RicodJour]

Matt has a timber framed log home and loves wood (as do I). Don hates government spending. John apparently has a bone to pick with Boise Cascade. I tilt at windmills.

R

[Matt Whiting]

It actually can be rational. I'm not sure it applies to beams of this style as they tend to have pretty think webs, but heavy rectangular section wood beams withstand a fire MUCH better than a steel beam sized for the same load. Wood burns, but it takes a long time to burn a heavy beam enough for collapse. A steel beam heats up quickly and will yield long before the wood beam has failed.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

The more you learn, the less appalled you will be.

Matt

[Don]

The OP has never stated what *type* of school this is so both of us, all of us, may be going down the wrong path. It could very well be a small school built by a church, which is very common in FL, or other private agencies.

[Don]

Stealing. I hate stealing, by anybody. How the thief spends the booty after the fact is not my primary concern, unless the money is spent towards efforts to steal even more. Its funny, voters give the politicians the OK to steal and then complain about how its spent.

If I built a building in 2003 with Boise joists I'd be wondering what those stamps on the sides of the joists say. I'd also be watching the ceiling for any sagging.

[Matt Barrow]

Maybe he should buy an old single room schoolhouse to live in.

As do I, especially spending that is outside of a proper function of government. That said, let me just repeat the old chiche, "Penny wise, Pound foolish".

Obviously!

I have little or no patience with childish foolishness.

[marcenmoni]

This type of comparison can actually be misleading. Emergency response vehicles (at least here in south Florida) have the same siren as fire trucks and Italy, so far as I saw in 8 years in Milan, doesn't have an fire department equivalent to an ERV. Also, you have to compare actual fires to fires, as opposed to emergency responses, the bulk of which may not be fire related at all.

That said, according to this article

fire loss is apparently higher in the US residences than in some western European countries. The article cites public awareness and education as key difference, as well as prevention.

In the studios that I worked in Milan, I did not see an NFPA 101 type manual of basic fire codes, much less more detailed manuals like NFPA

13 (some of the provisions of which could drive one batty). Nevertheless, fire marshalls do inspect construction in Italy and do sign off, businesses have fire extinguishers, checks are regularly made, etc. On the other hand, the vast majority of historic buildings don't have fire sprinklers.

Citing the construction of a building I don't think is nearly as critical as the contents and surface finishes in the building. After all, a concrete apartment with carpeting, curtains and wallpaper full of books and papers is more of a fire hazard than an wood framed apartment without such finishes and contents.

Also, most historical buildings (pre-1900) have timber supported floors, with only unreinforced masonry exteriors. Whether such a building succombs faster to fire I don't think affects the general response time or the frequency of response of fire personnel.

I think that frequency of fires has a more to do with people simply being more conscientious of what they are doing. The Ashland article points to more education as being a key difference, but in my searches I also found this article, which I happen to agree with more:

There is a lot more 'paranoia' here in the US than in Western Europe, and I think that is the biggest factor of them all. As a related tangent, yesterday I happened to read Rated X language in the Palm Beach County land development code. Where would such language be, you ask? Why, the definition of sexual activities, of exposure, under the definitions of adult entertainment:

"17) Specified Anatomical Areas Less than completely and opaquely covered: a) Human genitals and pubic region; or b) the opening between the human buttocks, i.e., the anal cleft; or c) that portion of the human female breast encompassed within an area falling below the horizontal line one would have to draw to intersect a point immediately above the top of the areola (the colored ring around the nipple); this definition shall include the entire lower portion of the female breast, but shall not include any portion of the cleavage of the human female breast exhibited by a dress, blouse, shirt, leotard, bathing suit, or other wearing apparel, provided the areola is not so exposed; or d) human male genitals in a discernibly turgid state, even if completely and opaquely covered.

18) Specified Sexual Activities a) Human genitals in a state of sexual stimulations, arousal, or tumescence; b) acts of human anilingus, bestiality, buggery, cunnilingus, coprophagy, coprophilia, fellation, flagellation, masochism, masturbation, necrophilia, pederasty, pedophilia, sadism, sadomasochism, sexual intercourse, or sodomy; or c) fondling or other erotic touching of human genitals, pubic region, buttock, anus, or female breast; or d) excretory functions as part of or in connection with any of the activities set forth in subsections of Art. 4.B.1.A.2.b.17)-18), Specified Anatomical Areas and Specified Sexual Activities."

Perhaps the most laughable piece of zoning code I've ever run across. And the result of paranoia and overlitigiousness.

Marcello