Well, this is this century Sandman. What existed 100 years ago is hardly
relevant to the conversation at hand. Everything being discussed is being
discussed in the context of today, not 100 years ago. This was after all, a
modern day shop class we saw the pictures of.
Where in the hell did 100 years ago come from?
You were disagreeing with what Andy said about an instructor of his when he
was in school, in a different time and place of which you have no knowledge.
That _was_ the "context" and you just didn't snap to the change ... and just
how old do you think he is?
My bad Swingman - I was responding to the "another century" from your
previous post. It's not likely that such a term would be meant to express
what existed in 1999. It's more likely that such a comment would express
what existed a long time back in the past century, which by itself was
reflective of older conventions.
No, neither Duane nor I disagreed with what he said about an instructor of
his, we disagreed with what the instructor said as being applicable to the
wood shop site we all viewed on the internet, and the propriety of kids
working that sort of work. There's a big difference there. It does not
matter what the instructor said 40 or 50 or 80 years ago, it's not today.
It's not relevant to what was being discussed and it's not relevant to the
school under discussion.
How old do I think Andy is? I really don't know. I often get surprised
when I see pics of folks and find that they are either younger or older than
I had imagined. I simply take Andy as I see him - a pretty well thought
out contributor who seems to have a pretty broad base of experiences he
speaks from. Like everyone else here, he's not always dead right with
everything but also like a lot of folks here, he often has some good stuff
to add to the mix.
Yes, there is a big difference ... unfortunately, and as I have said
repeatedly, it appears you missed the point, as well as the context, of
Andy's reply to your post. You need to go back and read it in it's entirety
with an open, instead of argumentative, mind.
For which country was he "totally wrong"?
I doubt seriously that you have experienced a strong apprenticeship program
in this country, or the class distinction that still existed into the middle
of the last century, unless you were born early in that century.
Having lived and worked a factory job in the UK, where Andy is, some 40
years ago, when the apprentice system was still strong and class distinction
subtle, but present, I'd say Andy precisely described what my take would
have been at the time.
Well, it may have been a common opinion of the time although I don't
think I would have agreed even then, but, I'll grant I'm not a Brit so
have strange upstart ideas of "place"... :)
What's wrong w/ <any> person, of any perceived class having an
acquaintanceship of/with <any> particular field of occuption/study?
Just because they may (a) be retrained in further depth, or (b), not use
it for a profession doesn't make it "wrong" in my book...(a) may be a
less-than-optimum useage of time for those who do, indeed follow on, but
I'm not even positive of that--repetition is of benefit, too. And, we
are at least, I assume, talking of a present attitude...
First you must imagine a workplace attitude and culture where "tools of the
trade" are not to be used by anyone who has not gone through the appropriate
apprenticeship, and you can then begin to understand why the instructor's
comments may not have been "totally wrong, as you stated.
My first job with a cabinet maker in England in the early 60's, I was
forbidden to use anything but the claw end of a hammer. It was a couple of
months before I convinced him that I could use a handsaw accurately and to
good effect. He _very_ grudgingly allowed that due to being short on
apprentices far enough along to get that particular job done.
My second job was in an aircraft factory where I was on "staff", wore a coat
and tie, had tea served to me on a table with a table cloth, all right next
to coverall attired "floor" workers, who had to fetch their own tea, sip it
on a bare table adjacent to mine ... and made twice the money I did.
Different "classes" of workers back in those days ... and woe betide me if I
had attempted to pick up a hacksaw out on the factory floor.
Oh, I understand the background (jest becuz i are Amurricun dont meen I
cain't reed gud nor travle), I just fail to see how that applies in the
context in which Andy quoted his instructor...
But, we can agree to disagree...
I understand those cultural nuances Swingman, and I've experienced
environments different from what we enjoy here at home, as well. There is a
difference though between what was allowed as a part of the job, on the work
floor, even back then, and what really existed in people's lives. Even back
then, kids worked with tools outside of the workplace, albeit they hadn't
completed any apprenticship. The whole conversation has not been about the
rules of closed shops and shop rules, it's been about kids learning and
doing. I agree with Duane that the instructor was wrong in what he said,
regarless of the cultural environment at the time. Beyond that, this is
2004 and not some other time in history when things were different.
You scare me Larry. I didn't see a picture there where they were doing
anything unsafe. Push sticks on a router table is not one of the best ideas
I've ever heard. Hands inches from the bit? Yeah - it's called
woodworking. It requires control in order to be safe. Look at what they
are routing and suggest a safer alternative.
I too don't see any glaring safety hazards. Some of the kids in the
background(s) didn't have their safety glasses on...but I'm sure they've
been told umteen times. Table saw guards and spliters in place. No long
sleeves or long hair evident. I noticed some have hearing aides but one
might wonder why they don't wear the muffs to preserve what little hearing
they might still have.
Larry(...not the original poster)
"Ryan using a vibrator..."
I have to agree with others here, other than the photographer running
around doing flash photography while the kids are in the middle of
operations I don't see anything to get in a twist about. I hope they
warned them a flash was coming before they fired up the machine.
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