wood glue at hi temps

[Electric Comet]

anyone know if would glue breaks down at hi temps

say 200-300 f

[notbob]

Depends. Is "would glue" anything like "wood glue"? ;)

nb

[krw]

Sure. Wood breaks down at high temperature.

...something like 451F.

[clare]

Depends what kind of "wood glue".

Hide glue melts at 150 to 180F. Casein glue should not be heated beyond about 150F PVAgoes "plastic" at about 160F

So the short answer to your question is "yes, many wood glues will fail well below 200 to 300 degrees F"

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Dec 24, 2016, [e-mail] wrote (in article):

Also, what do we mean by ?fails??

I have two heavy wooden doors bought 10 or 15 years ago that quickly sagged trapezoidal in the summer heat - the Sun hits them in the afternoon. The original doors were ratty, but never sagged. The problem is that the door manufacturer used some kind of plastic based glue (Titebond?) that creeps in the heat of the day, which is inappropriate in an exterior door. My solution is a turnbuckle brace, but that door manufacturer needs to use a suitable glue. Like Resorcinol or epoxy - something that chemically sets, versus being thermoplastic.

Joe Gwinn

[whit3rd]

If the joints were tight, there wouldn't be creep at any reasonable temperatures. Methinks the manufacturer didn't use good construction OR good glue.

Did the rail/stile joints open and show a crack?

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Dec 24, 2016, whit3rd wrote (in article):

The joints appear to be cope and stick,which depends entirely on the glue, even if the glue line is tight.

Even mortise and tenon will rack unless the tenons fit the sockets perfectly on all four faces; this is unlikely in US production - too fiddly.

It looks to be the glue, but I did not take the door apart.

While Titebond is a very good general-purpose glue, I?m betting it will creep quickly at 150 F.

"Polyvinyl Acetate (PVA) Glue: Any glue consisting primarily of polyvinyl acetate polymer. This category includes most traditional white glues and more advanced yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in strength, flexibility, water-resistance and sandability, they offer good performance, cleanup with water and are non-toxic. Because PVA glues tend to ?creep?, or slowly stretch under long-term loads, they are not recommended for structural applications.? .

Elsewhere on the Titebond website, it says that their hide glue offers superior creep resistance. As do epoxy and resorcinol.

Yes. The cracks are tapered exactly as one would expect if the jamb side stile dropped down, but stayed parallel to the hinge side stile. The turnbuckles prevented further creep.

Joe Gwinn

[clare]

Easy to fix. Drill and pin with good hardwood dowels, the way the old doors were made - -

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Dec 24, 2016, [e-mail] wrote (in article):

It?s a good idea, although the old-timers used hide glue as well.

Joe Gwinn

[clare]

As well as dovetails instead of straight Mortise and Tenon construction. Some of those early doors wouls stay together and square with no glue or metallic fasteners.

[Electric Comet]

tbii

hide glue and casein are the same or no

which glues are pva

more research for me then

[Electric Comet]

may be but hide glue not good outdoors unless you have good moisture barrier finish

[J. Clarke]

No. Casein is milk-based. Hard to find in the market now but you can make your own. Formerly (before WWII) was used for aircraft construction.

Hide is, well, hide (and hoof and fish and other things) based, has the advantages that it can be disassembled with heat and doesn't have to be completely removed to effect a repair, as long as the repair is also with hide glue.

Most of the common "wood glues"--Elmer's, Titebond, etc.

[notbob]

Xcelite tools usta be sold in casein capped sets, as late as the

1980's. You can smell it. Casein plastic smells like sour milk:

***OR***

nb

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Jan 11, 2017, Electric Comet wrote (in article ):

Huh?

Different. Only Hide Glue is much used these days.

A special-purpose variant is Fish Glue.

These are for indoor uses only, not being moisture proof.

All the milky white or yellow emulsion types, that resemble and often smell like Elmers Glue.

The research is simple - the manufacturer?s data sheet will say what the operating temperature range is.

If you want to cut to the chase, use only glues intended for fabricating wooden boats, as these will resist both temperature and moisture, and are strong and creep-resistant.

In for instance the magazine Wooden Boat, you will find everything necessary. There are also numerous web sites. These glues can be bought online, and in West Marine stores.

Joe Gwinn

[Martin Eastburn]

What were the handles made of - same stuff ? If I leave mine in very hot conditions and moisture - they turn snow white. I put them in my RF vibration tank with some Green cleaner and they sparkle clean later.

Martin

[Electric Comet]

[Electric Comet]

titebondii

everybody has a bottle of hide glue around

i see

thought wood boats were made so that the wood swelled and created the water proof joint but had to be wet to stay sealed

but maybe that is ancient technique

westmarine has the highest prices almost always but sometimes there are deals

glues are not often discounted either

[Joseph Gwinn]

On Jan 17, 2017, Electric Comet wrote (in article ):

It?s best the leave the context in above, so people can understand what is being responded to.

Yes. Even in the Viking Age, they caulked the seams with wool saturated with beeswax. In the Age of Sail, it was oakum (rotten rope) driven in with a caulking iron and hammer.

More recently, people use Resorcinol or Epoxy. See Wooden Boat.

Glue is not a good place to be saving money. It?s like a tailor who uses expensive fabric and cheap thread.

In the other thread, yes the wooden door sagging trapezoidal in the summer heat is a failure. There are no marks on the door saying who made it, or I?d be lecturing them.

Joe Gwinn

[Colin Campbell]

Seems to me that one of the crucial features of boats is keeping the water out! Almost as soon as multi-plank boats began to be built, people used pitch or resins to seal the joints. Speaking as an amateur boat builder, you *do not* want your seams expanding and contracting at all, much less at different rates, depending on whether it rained last night.

Cheers, Colin