Walnut and Glue

[dpb]

"

">>>> "...Using this concept, the optimum clamping pressure for sugar >> maple

The guy is a prof in industrial processes at a university w/, it appears, something like 20 years or so of experience and a fairly long list of published and contract works from various sources including FPL and wood manufacturing businesses. From that, I would presume his work has been considered valuable or he wouldn't continue to hold the position and find clients.

OTOH, it does appear that his work is mostly for large, automated industrial processes so that I think his results aren't of great import to most small shops or individuals as is the general readership of r.w nor do I think most of FWW's readership is of the same type/style of manufacturing as that to which his research is/was directed.

[Tanus]

Sorry guys.I should have given more information.

All joints failed at the glue. In other words, the pieces pretty much fell apart with no wood breaking.

The glue hasn't frozen but it has been cold. I've used the glue recently and it's worked fine. Although I keep the glue in an unheated shop, the cabinet it's stored in is heated throughout the winter. Buying new glue is what I'll do next.

I liked the idea of staving the joint until more than a few of you said that likely wasn't the case, which is bringing me back to bad glue.

The faces were hand planed and very smooth to the touch. No sanding after planing. I squeezed the glue in a zig zag along both surfaces and then smoothed with a finger so the glue was even on both.

There is some doubt in my mind about the wood being walnut. I'll verify that later. However, the wood from the kindling pile was very dry. I get my kindling from a cabinet shop locally, and store it in a shed before and after sawing it to length.

I'll get some more glue and try this thing again. In the interim, I made my knobs from other stock, but this idea of glue failing is not one I want to repeat.

Thanks all of you for the replies. I didn't think this was going to generate so much. I'm glad I asked.

Tanus

[Lew Hodgett]

Remember your experience with epoxy?

Patience is a virtue.

Neither epoxy or TiteBond like cold weather or being put to work before they are ready.

Lew

[Kenneth]

Howdy,

'Just curious...

How do you heat the cabinet?

Thanks,

[Tanus]

LOL. Lew, you have a memory like my wife's. What's worse, you and she are right way too many times.

But, you have a point. The epoxy failed the first time precisely because of the cold. This time, I really dunno. I'll get some new glue and give it another whirl.

Tanus

[Lew Hodgett]

I know, but I comb my hair so it covers it

Why not use the epoxy you already have?

Lew

[dpb]

It's old by now, too? :)

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[Tanus]

Hi Ken,

I can't remember what these things are called, but they're sold as copper line heaters to prevent the water line from freezing. I got mine at the Borg. 120 volt with a simple bimetallic strip thermostat. They look like extension cords and give off enough heat to keep the line from freezing but are not too hot to handle with bare hands. Lengths vary from 6' to 25' or more.

I've lined a cupboard with Styrofoam SM and put a couple of these line heaters around the perimeter. It keeps the cabinet warm enough for my glues, water stones and anything else I need to keep from freezing. The rest of the shop can get down to about -30° C but the cabinet stays above freezing.

Tanus

[dpb]

Tanus wrote: ...

Out of (more or less idle) curiosity, any idea how old what you used actually is? IIRC, a year is the suggested shelf life for TB III, but I've seen no change in gluing properties of that kept far longer.

It does tend to thicken somewhat and get stringy, but as noted on the container, a jarring of the container (not stirring, but vibrating) will reconstitute its properties unless it is, indeed, too far gone. (It's a very unusual-behaving material in that regard; I've never observed a similar characteristic in any other material).

Also iirc, the chalk temperature is 47 F, so if it is cool at night yet still above freezing, even if the glue is warm enough being stored in the heated cabinet, if the wood is colder than that, it will cool the glue and the result could be the failure of the type you observe. Does the glue surface appear to be dry and chalky after the failures? If so, that would be a very suggestive indicator of low temperature. I had forgotten to mention the wood temperature as well as glue before.

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[Norvin]

Some woods such as Hond. cherry have oil in them and the surface needs to be wipe with Acetone just prior to gluing, otherwise it will just seperate as I found out.

[Lew Hodgett]

After 5 years, might want to check it.

Before that, use it.

Lew

PS: That's assuming it is stored properly.

[Lew Hodgett]

Where I come from they are known as heat tapes.

Lew

[Tanus]

I bought my current Titebond in early 2008, Jan or Feb. All temps, glue, wood and environment, were above 60 when the glueing was done, but overnite temps may have dipped into the 40s. I bring glueups into the house in the winter, but don't in spring/summer. This piece was so small, it would have been easy to bring it inside to cure overnite, but it never entered my mind.

You may have something here.

I"m still going to get new glue.

[Tanus]

I could have. That epoxy is stored inside and I'm sure it's fine. It's also expensive as hell, and I don't want to use it for ordinary glue-ups. I'm certainly a convert, Lew. The stuff is amazing in tough-to-fix jobs, but for this, if I had considered it, would have seemed a waste. I'm also sure that it would have worked well.

Tanus

[Jim Behning]

Back in high school wood shop days we would glue poplar up for lathe turnings. We would glue a sacrificial piece on the bottom of the stack with a piece of newspaper between the good stuff and the sacrificial. When we were done turning we would pop off the sacrificial piece. It somehow survive turnings. I do not know how safe the practice was but I do not recall any disasters. I would bet we let that glued up stuff dry a few days in a 70 degree shop.

[Lew Hodgett]

Prices vary widely for epoxy and amount purchased has a major impact on pricing.

Not sure what "It's also expensive as hell" means price wise, but a 1 gallon kit is worth a look.

Lew

[rich]

Well, I'm mostly corn-fused about glue thickness and pressure. Fine for a lab or industrial setting, but for me it seems reasonable to put a smooth coating on both sides, them clamp "tightly." When I've tried to break glue joints later, the wood separates indicating the glue was strong enough.

In the OP, the one thing I noticed was the lack of time between gluing and working. I think the Titebond label says something like "sets in

30 mins, full strength in 24 hours." I always wait 'bout an hour to unclamp, then overnight before I trust the joint. And if I don't need the clamps right away, they usually remain clamped overnight.

I think all of the above suggestions have merit, but the big factor would seem to be the time between gluing and working.

Hope this helps.....

[dpb]

rich wrote: ...

Quite possibly the key, particularly if it was cool as appears may have been from followup. TB III is slower-drying than either I or II which has advantages, but it does require longer before working. I guess I may have overlooked that detail in initial reading.

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[whit3rd]

Two good possibilities: the wood may be too wet, or resinous, and the glue isn't 'taking'. Or, your plane could need sharpening (the pressure on a plane blade can collapse the little cellulose tubes, and they won't wick up the glue if they're not open).

Scuff-sanding after flattening the wood will deal with possibility number two. Epoxy or polyurethane or hide glue might work better on resinous woods.

Lamination is in some senses an easier gluing task than making glue-up chunks, because of the large glue area.

[Kenneth]

Howdy,

Could you say a bit more about that...?

It seems to me that the comment would make sense only for end grain, so I suspect I am missing something.

All the best,