Sticky Combination Squares

[John Grossbohlin]

Smoothness right out of the box. Easy to read scales. Dead accurate for machine set up (e.g., blade stops/fence stops/tilting bed stops, etc.). It's kind of like using a L-N plane vs. a new Stanley plane... you see and feel the difference.

They make them with scales in 64ths and they have what they call "quick reading" 32nds and 64ths.

Do you absolutely need something this fine for woodworking itself? No, not really, a decent wooden try square and dividers or a compass could substitute. After 40+ years the decent one I got for Christmas as a kid was pretty well shot--my father was a journeyman tool a die maker in the '50s and '60s so it made sense to him to get me a decent one. I had the money so I got the Starrett maybe 10-12 years ago. The old one resides in my carpentry tool box as it still has utility for carpentry when used with a pencil. The Starrett resides in my shop's precision tool drawer with calibers, dial gauges, etc. and is used for metal and woodworking and tool set ups.

P.S., It doesn't hurt to treat yourself occasionally. Back in the '80s I did a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met a lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out with "I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the story tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need to take care of yourself.

[DerbyDad03]

You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this thread. %-)

I've already posted about the differences between the Empires and the set from Lee Valley. That's what started this thread. I know that they aren't all the same.

What I've asked (twice) is "What is the difference between a $14 Empire and $90+ Starrett combo squares?" Haven't seen that answer yet.

As previously stated, I have already "certified/validated" that the Empires, both my old one (decades old) and a recently purchased one (last week) slide much easier than the set from Lee Valley.

Done and done.

"Fine" yes, but since one brand is much easier to use than the other, that's the one I'll use and that's the one I'll give.

[J. Clarke]

FWIW, I thought Empire was OK too. Made some small boxes. Was a bit annoyed that the sides didn't meet. After much investigation I found that my Empire combo square wasn't quite square. Cleaned everything, it was now square, made more boxes, still didn't come out square. More investigating and it turned out that there was enough slop in it that it was square sometimes and not others. I don't know if it was wear or a manufacturing defect. I supposed I could have reworked it but life is short.

Got a Starrett. End of problem.

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks for answering my question.

As are the $14 Empires.

I can't say that the Empires *aren't* but they certainly haven't caused me any issues over the years. Granted, I have not compared them to a Starrett, but the Empires have never made me say "Why doesn't this measurement seem to work out?"

I've never needed 64ths in a combo square, splitting a 32nds has work well enough for me on the rare occasions I've needed to go to that level of accuracy.

What is a "quick reading" 32nd or 64th? Do I have to move my eyes faster? ;-)

I treat myself quite frequently. That's why I'm paying $800+ to rent a house this weekend instead of $400-ish for a kitchen-equipped suite at a Marriott or Hilton.

While I haven't done *everything* I've said I wanted to do (has anyone?) I've done enough that I could die tonight with no regrets.

Well, there might be one. I've never flown in a helicopter. I've flown in all manner of passenger planes, Piper Cubs types in Alaska, the belly of military cargo planes and even the Goodyear Blimp. Just haven't done the helicopter thing yet. I could do the "tourist thing" at any time, but I'm kind of waiting for that one-off, like running into someone who owns their own or has access to a company helicopter so I can go up "privately" if you know what I mean.

[DerbyDad03]

I have set of machinists squares. Both my old and new Empires appear to be dead on. The Lee Valley set does as well.

You can be sure that I've dropped my old Empire more than a few times over the years, but it still reads square.

[krw]

$76, of course.

I haven't been impressed with Starrett for some time. I look at their stuff at Highland when I'm there. Woodpeckers is made better and no more expensive (for their product overlap, of course). It seems that they're just trading on their name.

[krw]

Buy once. Cry once. I'm in the process of throwing away a pile of crap tools (most of) which I thought were decent when I bought them. The sanders I put in the trash tonight were always junk. Everything has been replaced by quality. It makes a difference.

[Leon]

Oddly the fixing screw that tightens against the rule is relatively ball shaped, it kinda wedges into the edge of the groove in the rule. The indexing pin goes into a hole and fixes confidently and with out any play. BUT moving the rule is crotchety.

no All require the nut/screw to be pushed to relieve the tension and release the rule. And or until there is no tension on the nut.

[Leon]

Longevity of accuracy.

[DerbyDad03]

And how has the accuracy of my old Empire changed?

[John Grossbohlin]

No regrets is a worthy goal. Sometimes it's nice for someone to remind me that I've had a lot of great adventuring in my life. Some of that adventuring was in my shop as I tried and conquered new things. I don't feel that I'm done, but yeah, I've got no regrets either.

I do appreciate nice handtools... I have a lot of L-N tools (planes, saws, spoke shaves, screw drivers, card scrapers...) and appreciate the quality and the feel of the tools. Just last week I gave my son a set of my functionally duplicate planes, spoke shaves, calipers, sliding bevel gauge, and a combination square so he could have a good start.... The planes included block, low angle block, No 4, No 5, and No 22 (Millers Falls equivalent of a No 7). That No 22 was my grandfather's. The block plane was my friend's grandfather's. Her father told me he wanted me to have his tools a week or so before he died. He told his family on his death bed to give me all his tools and his father's tools as he wanted them to be used. He didn't know anyone else who even knew how to use them... Both men were union carpenters from the early to late-mid 1900s. The bevel gauge was my friend's great-grandfather's and has late 19th century patent dates. All those tools were well tuned and in fine working condition. It took me decades to "build my shop" and I've helped my 26 year old son get off to a good start. He's also got my old Jet contractor's saw, the one I replaced with a Jet cabinet saw. I gave him a bunch of books today. Like my friend's father, I want to see the stuff used... I don't want to have a museum here! I also appreciate the extra room I now have!

Anyhow, you wouldn't regret owning a Starrett combination square even if you don't "need" it. I should have mentioned that with the heat treatment they receive they should hold their accuracy much better than the mild steel and cast iron of lessor squares. As I recall Starrett makes forged and cast versions if you want to get really picky. ;~)

[Jack]

I use my Dads Lufkin #65 and have been for 45 years. Before that, I never remember my Dad not using this square so it is likely over 70 years old. It's my most used tool and it has been dropped on to cement floors 100's of times and undoubtedly from many roof tops as well. It still is smooth as glass and perfectly square. Made in the USA in Saginaw Michigan when the US still made stuff.

You can find them on Ebay for around $30.

[Scott Lurndal]

Last time I checked Empire (and modern Stanley) combo squares, not one of the ones that I checked was actually, you know, square.

I was fortunate to acquire a starrett set (regular head, center finder, protactor head) with a 12" and 24" blade for free; they're dead on square regardless of the blade position.

[Bill]

Sorry, it's true that I didn't read them all. I'll try to make up for that and see what I missed.

[whit3rd]

Somewhere, someone in a factory messed up. It happens. I've got Starrett combo squares that are excellent, but ONE of them is 'way off of square).

If it's sticky, it's probably a burr or a bit of foreign material; a hand stone rubbed on the burr will fix the problem, you just have to inspect a lot of surfaces and edges. Less likely, something is bent; inspection for a curve is not difficult, but it's not as fix-able (I've got a dial indicator that sticks, unless I apply stress; it's retired now).

[DerbyDad03]

Everything you've said is 100% true, except for your use of "it's". In reality the correct word is "they". The boxed set includes a 12" square and a 6" square. They both exhibit the same resistance to sliding. Exactly. I even swapped heads, to no benefit.

If the problem is a burr or a piece of foreign material, it's common to both squares, leading me to lean towards a manufacturing issue - unless that's how they want them to operate. I don't want them to operate them that way, so I'm going to see about returning them.

I do have 2 more squares that I can compare them to because I bought a set as a gift and a set for myself. I need to check the LV return policy. If opening the package voids the return, I'm not going to open the other set just to test them.

[DerbyDad03]

An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

How to tune up a combo square...

[John Grossbohlin]

More related to my second comment on this topic, but yes, he did touch on key quality issues. Regarding the tuning... I'm more of a file and stone guy for this type of tuning as the sandpaper often hits surfaces you don't want hit... but sandpaper (more appropriately various grades of emery cloth) could work too.

After all that, did you change your order? ;~)

[krw]

I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the length accurately.

[John Grossbohlin]

Now that you have some reference points they'll probably bug you. ;~)