I don't see much discussion about combination machines. Like Felder etc. Is it because the the hefty prices or, are there other reasons we don't like them?
They make some sense to me. Retirement is highly overrated.
They are for shops where most of the work, other than stock preparation, is done by hand. Changes and tweaks eat time.
Retirement's great. Ever consider getting a hobby?
Combination machines are like Swiss army knives; they do a lot of things, but none of them well. My Dad started out with a Shopsmith. As he got tired of making the adjustments to convert from one operation to another, a real shop grew up around it. It now sits as a pretty much dedicated disc sander. Bugs
I have done a little research and have emailed back and forth with a few owners of these machines and have decided to pick up a used Robland x31. I have been watching them on ebay for the last 6 months and they are selling for $2500.00 - $4000.00. The X31's sell for just under $7,000 new. There is a Rojek available here in Arizona. It is the second from the bottom as far as size goes for them. It sold new for $12,000.00. the guy is asking for $8,000.00 but it is too big for a garage workshop. I think the foot print on that rojek is 7'X7'. It is quite impressive!
Most of the manufacturers have mobility kits available and on some of these machines like the rojek you can use a pallet jack to move it around.
There is not much fiddling between machine changes on these machines.
AZCRAIG
Think bigger like Knapp or Laguna. I think they probably do every thing well. :~) IIRC 80% of the time each portion of the machine works with out disturbing other machine adjustments.
That is a pretty silly statement. There are really high-end combo machines that do everything really well. Checkout the MiniMax and Felder machines and then make an informed decision.
I don't think that hand work has anything to do with it.. I think that for most people it comes down to maximizing shop space. Getting a 12" sliding table saw, shaper, 12" jointer, 12" planer, and tenoning machine into a shop with separate components takes a lot of room. Combining them into a single machine saves a lot of space.
I do. I can make that one extra mortise easily, take an extra pass with jointer or planer, etc without a problem with dedicated power tools. Not to mention I can have a couple projects going without trouble.
They're great at single-man stock preparation, as I said. After that - nope.
BTW, my shop's 13x18 (and out the door), and I learned how not to waste central space with machine wings and sliding tables and such, so I have a good set of dedicated tools on caster-mounted cabinets. I am thinking of moving the lumber storage out to gain some more floor space for a thickness sander, though.
I am completely confused. Your original statement said that combo machines were good for shops where most of the work was done by hand. Now you are saying that they great for a one man shop, which I totally agree with. I don't see how the two are related.
I also agree that the problem with combo machine is that it is a pain to go back and make one more of an item.
When people hear the term "combination machine" they typically think of a ShopSmith type of machine. As someone in this thread noted, there are other, far more capable and far easier to use, combination machines- Rojek, Robland, Mini-Max, Hammer and Felder, to name those of which I am aware (grammarians: are you happy now?). These ARE NOT ShopSmith type machines. These are half ton or better, cast iron and spinning carbide and/or high speed steel, 3 to 5 Real Horsepowered WOOD EATING, CHIP FLYING, NOISE MAKING, FINGER CUTTNG - MAN TOOLS! OHOH-HO-HO!
(Sorry, slipped into Tim Allen Mode. Won't happen again. Sorry)
These combies, as we owners refer to them, typcially come with five functions - table saw with sliding table, shaper, jointer, planer AND horizontal boring/mortising with an XYZ table and three, count 'em, three true 3 o 5 hp motors - one for the saw, one for the shaper and one for the jointer/planer/mortiser. So the three functions needed to get stock flat, with parallel flat faces, straight flat edges square to the face - a jointer/joiner, planer and rip saw, are taken care of in one, easily moved/rotated machine. Having a 3 hp shaper that'll handle an inch and a quarter bore and can use the sliding table is gravy. Add the ability to make 4" deep mortises and you've got a machine that opens up a lot of possibilities. And having a machine that weighs in at a bit over half a ton means stability. On my 1100 pound X31, I can set a dime up on edge paralleling the saw blade, an another on edge square to the blade - then rip a 1 3/4" thick piece of maple without having either dime move, let alone fall over. Yet, when I want to move the unit I get out the moving handle bar with the wheel on its end, rasise the front so the two rear wheels will roll and push, pull or turn the machine as needed.
Of course, since these are Euro in origin, some of the functions the U.S. market permits are forbidden by the Euro equivalent of OSHA - no blind cuts so no need to accomodate dado blades, nor a need for fine blade height adjustments. And then there's the "manuals" which, originally written in German or Italian or Czech, translated into Aramaic, then Latin, through Sanskrit and finally into "english" may be, shall we say - less than helpful to a new owner. Fortunately there are owners groups on the internet for each of these machines with helpful, knowledgeable members. That's essential because you're not likely to have friend or neighbor with a unt like yours, whereas finding a local to help with a Unisaw or PM66 is not a problem.
I own, and actually use, a Robland X-31. Laguna Tools is the sole source for them in the USA. It's also towards the bottom end of LT's products line - selling new for "only" about $7K, while their production shop stuff start in the $25-30K range and head up steeply from there. As a result, their customer support is - let's just say "less than stellar". I made a day trip from Paris to Brugge for a by appointment only visit to the Robland factory to see how they set up the X-31. When I returned home, with my copius notes and plenty of digital images, I put together my own set up manual, then put it on my WWing site to perhaps help other X31 owners.
When you use a combi you're way of working changes a bit, more planning stock prep operations - joint everything, then plane everything, then rip everything and finally rip and cross cut (you can do cross cutting AND mitering with the sliding table and cross cut fence - with flip stop.
And there are parts that aren't normally left on the machine - the shaper shroud and fences, the XYZ table and the cross cut fence, along with their mounting hardware, handles etc. The XYZ table probably weighs 60 or 70 pounds and won't stand up by itself when not on the machine. So you'll probably want to make one of these to hold stuff and make it easier to get the XYZ table on and off the combi.
Look at this shop 16x22 shop layout and figure out how you could work in a cabinet saw with a 52" cross cut capability, a shaper, with sliding table, a 12" planer AND a 12" Jointer. The see if you can fit a horizontal boring/mortising machine - with XYZ table into the space.
Here's the url for the Robland X-31 group. Yahoo also has one for Felder and, I think, Mini-Max. Sign up and ask your questions of owners. Or, if you have questions about the Robland X31 feel free to e-mail me - my address is real - unlike many here.
charlie b
Overall I thought that you did an excellent job of outlining the combo machine market. One very small thing, you can now get high-end combo machines with dado capabilities. I know that Mini-Max and Felder have it and I thought that Robland was adding it.
Damn you charlie b, I need to wait until May or June to purchase my x31 and you just made the wait harder to take. he he he!
Craig
The USA market Robland X31 definitely does let you use a dado blade. But it doesn't have a wheel driven blade height adjustment mechanism, but rather a lever to raise and lower the blade and a twist of the lever handle to lock it in position or to allow it to move. Brian Lamb, a former Robland owner who made enough money with it to upgrade to the top of the combi market food chain - a loaded Felder - came up with a mechanism that kept the quick rough height setting AND fine height adjustment of the saw blade.
charlie b
I read all of Brian's posts on the Felder forum. He knows a lot and makes great stuff.
[snipped excellent post for brevity's sake]
Nicely done, Mr. b. It was precisely that kind of response I was hoping for. I never had the Shopsmith in mind when I asked for input on combis. I find this very informative, but one thing escapes me... how does one work one of these with more than one man working at the same time?...like one does some shaping, the other does some ripping?
I have never seen anyone try to use two functions at a time.
And great horizontal boring machine.
I use a robland X31 its a great machine have a lok at mine here
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I reiterate, they are fine if you have the time to convert them for every stage of a project. The 'high end' machines you discussed still have to be converted and adjusted for a different operation no matter how well they work. Bugs
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