Runny TiteBond III vs II (with pictures)

[DerbyDad03]

I am running low on TB II, so I bought my first container of TB III. The first thing I noticed was how runny III was compared to II. So I jumped on the ole interweb and did some homework.

I came across a 2014 thread in the wRec where Leon detailed his conversations with TB and was advised to stir the product before use. Stirred, not shaken. The wRec was not the only site where the runniness of III vs. II was discussed.

I also read the part about the date code, but unfortunately (mysteriously?) the date code is worn away enough that I can not determine the year of manufacture. The product was bought at HD.

I chucked a bent wire in my drill and stirred the product. It didn't seem to be lumpy or anything, but I stirred for a while any way.

The following 3 pictures were taken roughly 4-5 seconds apart. As you can see, the III flows much more quickly than the II. I should add that the II is at least 2 years old, but doesn't seem gummy or overly thick.

Let me know what you think. Is this the normal runniness of III vs. II?

Equal amounts applied to an ~6" piece of wood and tilted:

4-5 seconds later:

4-5 seconds later:

I'm a messy guy, so the runniness might be an issue for me.

[dadiOH]

I've never used TB3, no reason to so, I have no idea if it is normal. How well does it stick stuff together? If fine, use it but If you don't like the runniness use TB2.

[DerbyDad03]

Sorry, I screwed up the first link. Here are all three images again:

Equal amounts applied to an ~6" piece of wood and tilted:

4-5 seconds later:

4-5 seconds later:

[Sonny]

I clicked on that first incorrect link. It presented some sort of scam sit e. The window opened, telling me there was some sort of virus and that I needed to call Microsoft, to have it fixed. The 800 number was bogus, for Microsoft.... I called, they wanted $200 to fix the issue.

Not being computer savy, I called Best Buy's tech.

The tech at Best Buy told me it was a scam and how to remove the "error win dow": Right click the bottom task bar, click onto Task Manager, then high light Google Chrome (or whatever you're using), then click "end task". To be on the safe side, do a full scan of your computer, see if it detects an ything.

Sonny

[DerbyDad03]

ite. The window opened, telling me there was some sort of virus and that I needed to call Microsoft, to have it fixed. The 800 number was bogus, f or Microsoft.... I called, they wanted $200 to fix the issue.

indow": Right click the bottom task bar, click onto Task Manager, then hi ghlight Google Chrome (or whatever you're using), then click "end task". To be on the safe side, do a full scan of your computer, see if it detects anything.

I sincerely apologize. I did not get anything like that on either of my computers. Just a site saying there are "no sponsors for you at this time".

My computers are fairly well protected, so maybe that's it.

Again I apologize. One letter off, .co instead of .com.

[hubops]

Look carefuly - the first link is

imgur dot co it should be imgur dot com

Best not to re-post the spammy one, in replying ...

John T.

[Sonny]

Think nothing of it. I'm computer illiterate and naive about this sort of thing, so that stuff catches me off guard. I bought a new computer this w eek, so I was/am even more touchy. Just clicking X wouldn't removed the p age, .... part of the scam window, I guess.

I posted Best Buys' fix, in case someone else would happen to be as dumb as I.

Sonny

[dpb]

...

I dunno'; I've used a _lot_ of both (as well as just plain ol', plain ol', Titebond) and never really was anything I noticed with either...

On stirring, I think I recall it actually mentions some where that it (TB III, that is) is thixotropic (it becomes less viscous when agitated or stirred but will return to it's static viscosity over time when left still). I know their datasheets instruct that if becomes overly thick to not actually stir but agitate "by firmly tapping bottle on a hard surface" until returns to normal rather than by actual stirring.

The datasheet from TB for the three lists the following properties:

Product III II I Strength (psi) 4,000 3,750 3,600 Open Time(min) 10 5 5 Chalk Temperature(F) 47° 55° 50° Viscosity (cps) 4,200 3,200 3,400

which indicates the TBIII is spec'ed as the more viscous of the three.

So, I must say from my experience it's something I've not experienced so can't really comment other than the question raised/symptoms presented aren't my experience.

I will say that other than the slight difference in chalk temperature vis a vis TB I but distinctly lower than TB II, I see no reason to spend double for TB III _unless_ you really do need the extra water resistance it offers for an outdoor or similar project exposed to damp; once a joint is strong enough that it's generally the wood that breaks prior to the joint (which occurs in a very high fraction of well-prepared joints even w/ TB I) it's strong enough so what's the point?

I'm not saying not to use it, simply that it seems pretty pointless to spend money for no real added benefit unless you do have that specific reason.

$0.02, imo, ymmv, etc., etc., etc., ...

[DerbyDad03]

That what it says on the bottle, but according to Leon in the May 2014 "Titebond II followup" thread, the TB guys told him:

"Titebond III, Titebond Extend and Titebond II Extend Wood Glues all contain large particles to allow for longer open and assembly times. These products can settle and it is recommended to mix well before each use. Mixing must be done mechanically (i.e. with a stick) as tapping or shaking the bottle will not affect mixing of these high viscosity wood glues. Without mixing, the benefit of the larger particles will be lost and use of the un-extended versions may be better for your use.

Well, it ain't anywhere near double the price, but I definitely hear what y ou are saying. I had enough II left to glue up what I wanted to last night, so I'll decide what to do with the bottle of III I bought before I do anymore.

Home Depot

16 oz Titebond II - $5.47 16 oz Titebond III - $6.97

There is also the extended work time associated with III. I'm not just messy, I'm also really slow. ;-)

[dpb]

On 08/09/2016 5:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

I was comparing to T I which is quite a lot closer to the 2X number albeit not quite...I see 1 gal at 16 and 26 at one location...

Open time could be another valid reason, too, granted...particularly in warmer weather.

I'll look at the jug on hand and see what I think; but I just don't recall the symptoms when were doing so much exterior and barn work and used it extensively because it's so exposed out there...

Wonder if you stored it upside down and rotated it would help as it appears is what they're tech gurus are saying is happening

[Larry Blanchard]

That's my rationale as well. I use II most of the time, but if I have a project with a complex glue up, I switch to III.

Except for the times I get archaic and use hide glue :-).

[DerbyDad03]

OK, Larry...

Since you were the one that started the "Titebond III" thread back in 2014, basically asking the exact same question that I just asked, what do you think of what I show in the images from post #2 of this thread?

Are you still finding the III to be a whole lot runnier than the II or do I have bad bottle?

[DerbyDad03]

In some of the other threads related to III, that question came up. There didn't seem to be a consensus of whether it would work or what the rotation frequency should be.

Someone (Leon?) postulated that once the particles began to separate out, rotating the container would simply move the material from the "new top" to the "new bottom". If the techs at TB say stirring is the only method to mix the particles back in, it doesn't seem like rotation would work.

[dpb]

On 08/09/2016 6:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

I was thinking more of trying to prevent it in the first place...

[Leon]

According to Franklin/TiteBond the TBIII and the Extend have an additive that settles to the bottom of the bottle. When it settles the glue is thinner. I had a gallon of Extend and it was runny too. Once just past half way through the gallon the glue was more like pudding.

They shipped me a replacement.

I make it a habit to reach to the back of the display of glue and if any has dust on it I pass. This stuff has a short shelf life because of the settling.

It is a shame that it is almost impossible to get these glues quickly after manufacture since placed like Woodcraft and HD buy in bulk.

NO! I have a relatively new quart of TBIII and it is relatively thick and Because of the additive that extends the open time it should be thick and not runny.

I am probably going to go back to TBII because of this. I prefer to buy in Gallons but that does me no good if I can't use the whole thing.

[DerbyDad03]

Thanks. It did seem too runny even to me and I'm about as far from a glue expert as there can be. I also don't use enough glue to ever be able to use it up before it separates.

[Leon]

You are correct in your assumptions and about what you have read. BUT talking to the Franklin home office rep he says that bumping or shaking the glue will not restore the glue. It has to be stirred. The shaking as you mentioned is for restoring the glue to a more liquid state providing what you are shaking is not mostly the settled ingredient to extend open time. If the glue is too thin to begin with it has to be remixed by stiring. If you are stiring a partially used bottle it may be too late.

Just like TBIII fails real world water proof tests, they fail to say you need to stir and that the glue is not real world water proof. That would hinder sales of the product.

Their water proof classification by industry standards mentions nothing about being water proof in the analysis, only in the title of the classification. That may have changed but that is how it was shortly after TBIII was introduced and tested by a woodworking magazine. TBII actually tested better than TBIII in their tests when exposed to water.

Correct, when fresh out of the factory. Let TBIII sit on the shelf for a year or so and the and the heavy ingredients in the bottle settle to the bottom and the top half becomes runny.

[Leon]

If my bottle is over 4~6 months old I buy new.

[dpb]

On 08/09/2016 7:01 PM, dpb wrote: ...

Which obviously doesn't help with your current product, at least until you can (if you can) get it all back into suspension again, maybe could minimize subsequent occurrence.

[dpb]

On 08/09/2016 7:34 PM, Leon wrote: ...

OTOH, I've routinely kept gallon jug for year or more after a spate of heavy work that was then idle and it seems just fine...for the T's II and III. I've even thinned "plain ol'" yellow glue that has gotten a little thick and never had joint failures with it as long as it is still at least running...

Well, heck, let's just go look -- I'm pretty sure the TB III jug is downstairs not out in the barn...

Huh! Pulled out the plug that had formed in the top and lo! and behold! there was a later of water on the top and the bottom third is essentially all the solids...still good color all way through but it'll need to sit in the paint shaker it appears before use.

No date code I could decipher but it's probably 2 yr old since this one was purchased if my recollection is at all right...as 'spearmint I turned it over...we'll see if it'll improve any overnight.