Phase converter

[OFWW]

Your link is missing something so I couldn't see it. :(

[dpb]

On 6/16/2018 11:54 AM, OFWW wrote: ...

I shouldn't've surrounded it w/ the I guess...try just

shorturl.at/rIPX9

[OFWW]

That worked when I did a cut n paste.

Looks to me like he eliminated all heaters, L1 is connected to the top of the heater, unless he ran the L1 really tight and parallel to the heater, and the red wire to the coil is up there for sure so the heater if tripped would not kill the control circuit.

However, for whatever reason I could not zoom the picture large enough for clarification there.

[dpb]

You're right; that's a cobbed-up hookup fer sure...at the smaller pitchures over on the RHS there's a wiring diagram for a single-phase version but not a picture of the guts of one.

There's an even earlier Rockwell wiring manual for the Furnas-supplied starters at the OWWM site with text/drawing superimposed on pictures of parts. Publishing ain't what it used to be... :)

I'll try to go take a picture or two here; I have one in PM gold, even :) -- when I bought the Model 66 from factory in McMinnville, I ordered it w/o electrics to save a few bucks since I had already gotten the stash figured might as well use one of them instead of giving Powermatic another $50 or whatever it was...seemed like a lot of money then! :)

[OFWW]

WOW! I kept a copy of that just for old times sake. While some of the circuits don't have the proper safeties for full power cut off, it did show that circuit that was in the back of my mind. And this diagram should be of great interest to the OP as it shows all the variables. Albeit the new stuff is somewhat different but the circuits should still be applicable if used per local code.

[Bill]

Look at Item #5 on the list. Item #6 looks like the switch has been modified. Those are the only differences I can see from the pics.

BTW, the people that run these auctions aren't good at answering questions. Last time I went to look at a machine, the electric had been turned off and they couldn't even turn it on.

Bill

[Sonny]

Often times, those furniture companies use auto feeders with those tools, h ence the 3hp motors to handle the feed rate. A hobby shop only needs 1.5hp to 2hp for hand feeding stock. My 8" jointer has a 1.5hp, 3450 rpm, sing le phase, 110V, induction motor. It has never bogged down, in the slighte st.

Baldor, Leeson, Marathon are expensive, as are Powermatics replacement moto rs.

Grizzly has a 1hp motor for >$200. Their 2hp motor is $225 -

0V-220V/G2535 Would need to check the mounting plate.

A sale is coming soon in Peru, IN. The listings aren't shown, yet. The a nnouncement-list mentions jointers (plural) and maintenance equipment & sup plies ....might there be some motors? Isn't Peru much closer to you? Mig ht be worth the wait-n-see what's offered, there.

Sonny

[Bill]

Sonny, Thanks for the heads up. Peru is about 90 miles from Indianapolis too, closer to Fort Wayne. I've spent most of my free time this month on spring cleanup. A few more details and I'll get to "shop cleanup". 94-degrees here today. :)

[Bill]

8-inch is a typical size. Sonny pointed out it would be fine with a 1 or 2 hp motor, if hand fed.

I was thinking of adding some capitals to my posts.

Bill

[dpb]

On 6/16/2018 7:07 PM, Bill wrote: ...

...

For something that small presuming you could win at a few hundred $, just plan on trashing the motor and use what of the electrics you can; I'd bid on the cheaper one probably because folks will see the switch has been moved and figure something's wrong with it; even if it doesn't work replacements are easy and not expensive.

The base machines look in pretty good shape; that's all one really needs.

I thought we were talking something serious like a 12" Crescent or the like, probably...

The Model 60 is a very nice dovetail-ways jointer...those are older green/white stripe era but I don't recall just when the transitions were.

You can see the starter box on the back side in both auctions; Item 5 shows a Square D box on Item 6; Item 6 just barely shows the corner of the box on Item 5. I'd guess both of those have been added and aren't original. But, looks like you'll have all the pieces you need for single-phase operation, just swap out the motor and rewire and resize the heaters...

[dpb]

...

...

Indeed, the basic controller circuit logic is unchanged and same for all. I've paid no attention to Code changes since about the early 70s when went from 2-wire to 3 so I can't speak of what else there might be required if somebody were anal-enough to try to meet current Code with

1960's (roughly*) vintage gear.

(*) I bought the Model 66 new in late 70s and PM had gone to the Cadillac gold w/ green/red stripe then; the solid green preceded it but this from the pictures looks like is probably the lighter later-vintage green, not the original darker. Somewhere I've got a timeline of PM color schemes but can't seem to put hands on it at the moment.

[dpb]

On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote: ...

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And, they're not integral-mount motor; the old PM manual in fact says they only warranted the machine for max 2HP, not 3. Perhaps sometime later for 3P for commercial use there was a 3HP factory version but I'd guess there's at least a decent chance these were modified as someone else noted to be used with a power feeder...

If you're reasonably close and could snag one of them for $250 to even $500 you've probably got a good buy. Always would be nice to be able to confirm bearings and all, but they're already palletized so there's no chance for that. Even then, bearings can be replaced.

[Spalted Walt]

(bottom of page):

[dpb]

On 6/17/2018 8:17 AM, dpb wrote: ...

One last note...the real reason I convert to mag starter is not so much for the motor protection, etc., but the safety aspect that won't restart automatically if power goes out, breaker trips or somesuch event like the mechanical will.

[Bob La Londe]

On 6/16/2018 7:11 AM, [e-mail] wrote: > On Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:25:52 -0700, Bob La Londe > wrote: > >> On 6/14/2018 10:55 PM, Bill wrote: >>> >>> I was looking at a jointer with a 3HP 3-phase motor. I'd like to run >>> this from my home which has 220v. Would I be able to run it on a 20A >>> (preferably) or 30A circuit? >>> >>> Can you give me an example of a "phase converter" which would be up to >>> the task? I saw one for $89, but I couldn't tell whether it would be up >>> to the task or not. I imagine it might be wiser to avoid 3-phase and >>> keep looking, but I thought I would check with the experts here first. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Bill >> >> >> 3hp on 220V is (ideally) only about 10 amps. The reality it may peak a >> little higher under a hard startup or if you bog down the motor. >> >> A "good" rotary phase converter is the way to go if you think you will >> run much 3 phase stuff. I don't recall the derating, but its something >> like 30-40%. ie: Get a 5HP rotary for a 3HP motor. If all you wil ever >> run is a motor directly you can probably go with a cheaper static phase >> converter. Just remember that the derating is higher. Its best to see >> if the MFG says "This converter will run a X-HP motor." >> >> The easiest way for me (and most expensive) is I have dedicated variable >> frequency drives on each 3 phase motor in my shop. When used 1ph in and >> 3ph out they have a 30% derating as well, but they give me infinite >> variable speed control. Most are on CNC machines where a 0-10VDC analog >> power signal controls frequency and rpm. Others I just use the controls >> on the VFD. With most half decent 3phase motors you can run from half >> speed (frequency) to double speed without them tearing themselves apart. >> If they are inverter rated they may handle more. If you have one of >> those fancy new washing machines you probably have a high speed 3 phase >> motor controlled by a VFD already. You just didn't know it. >> >> Anyway, even with the parasitic losses it will probably run just fine on >> a 20 amp 220V circuit. Should be absolutely no issue at all on 30 amp. >> >> I think 1HP is roughly 750 watts. I always figure 800 and then add a >> fudge factor on top of that for safety. >> >> 3 X 800 = 2400 watts. >> 2400 / 220= 10.9 amps. >> >> You will have some loss from your phase converter, heat, wire, etc. >> Still with nearly double the fudge factor... >> >> Odds are your 220V is really closer to 230-235 anyway. > > In the US, your 220V is even properly called "240V" (twice 120V). >

In the US your 240V is anywhere from about 225 to 245 based on actually sticking a meter on a bus bar once or twice. Mostly I've seen 232 to about 236. Not counting star which tends to be fairly close to 208, but if you had 208 from a star transformer configuration you would already have 3 phase.

In my shop I have 236 on one leg and 234 on the other most of the time. I have not left my recording meter hooked up as I have not seen the kind of issues that would indicate I need to.

The gradual shift from 220 to 240 is in part due to the fact that power companies can transmit net total power more efficiently over lighter wire at higher voltages. Amps times volts equals total power (watts)

Getting back to the actual issue since I backed it all up with numbers already...20 amp should be fine, but it pays to have a larger fudge factor when using a phase converter as there is a bit of loss there. Particularly with a rotary where you are literally turning a larger motor to generate 3 phase.

[krw]

OK. Is the mains voltage precise anywhere in the world? The US specification is +/- 5% (228V to 152V), at the source (i.e. at the transformer). Losses in the wiring will put it on the low side of those numbers.

Different kettle of apples. That's not "204V" and rarely, if ever, found in residences.

Sure, you have an load imbalance. Not surprising but hardly relevant.

OK. But here we are.

Agreed. 20A single phase should be good for 5HP but I prefer a bit more overkill also. I usually do a home-run from the tools back to the panel, unless I know that two outlets can never be used at the same time. ...and with 240V circuits, usually then, too.

[Bill]

Please excuse my ignorance. I've seen that word over and over-"heaters". Is that slang for capacitors?

[dpb]

On 6/18/2018 1:17 AM, Bill wrote: ...

No, they're the fusible links that serve as overcurrent protection.

When you re-purpose a 3P controller for single phase, current draw will be higher by the factor of phases * Voltage for same size motor so the overcurrent protection has to match.

[Bill]

TYVM! If I ever buy one, it will be with great care! Thanks!

--Bill

[dpb]

In the picture of the old Rockwell starter at the previously posted link, the pink table on the inside cover is the heater sizing info as a function of motor nameplate current values. There will be such a table for any starter for the manufacturer's specific part. Since they're just fusible links, one of the same current rating will work in any starter as long as it fits mechanically.

On the circuit drawing on the same picture, they're the little curlicue in the motor T1 line as for functional depiction.

Smaller motors often have them built in as resettable thermal switches; that'd be the red button you may have had to reset on some tool you have.

Newer mag starters may also use resettable thermal switches/breakers instead of the fusible links.

So, you planning on bidding on one of these? Think you'd be very happy with the machine.