OT. Battery quandry(sump pump) Need help

I know this is off topic but I have gotton so much information here I hope to get an answer. I have an in line emergency battery powered sump pump that will run about 5-6 hrs on a full charge. I wish to connect a second battery to double the pumping time but I am not sure of the proper wiring. Option number 1, I can hook the positive termimals together and the negative together just like jumpstarting a car. Or option number 2, I can hook the positive pump lead to battery 1 positive, then battery1 negative to battery

2 positive, then pump negative lead to battery 2 negative. I don't know which way is better or if one way will give me 24 volts going to the pump which I sure don't want. Any help will be greatly recieved. Thank you all. Larri
Reply to
larry in cinci
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Use Option 1. Hook in parallel for extended power. Positive to negative will double the voltage which you don't want (series).

Gary

Reply to
GeeDubb

You want to hook them up in parallel.

scott

Reply to
Scott Lurndal

You want to connect the positive to the positive and the negative to the negative (in parallel). This will give the 12 volts with double the amp/hours. Connecting the other way would be in series and WOULD result in 24 volts.

-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Reply to
Nova

Reply to
larry in cinci

Don't do it.... Storage batteries have an internal resistance factor that will discharge another battery connected in parallel unless they are exactly equal in every way. difficult to achieve even if they are new identical batteries. They will discharge each other. There is an isolator that is used in motor homes etc. that will solve this problem. It is 2 diodes that will allow current to flow out of each battery to a load (Your pump) only. It must have a current capacity large enough for the load intended. You will also require another isolator to charge them, Same idea, It will allow current to flow from the charger to the batteries only and not between them. Both isolators connected properly will allow normal function of double the battery capacity but prevent a cross connection between them. One battery connection can be commonly connected. There may be a combination unit available. Check with a RV. supply co.

Reply to
Chipper Wood

Option 2 will likely burn out your pump as it will deliver 24V to it. Option 1, parallel, is the way to do it. However it could shorten the battery life due to circulating currents between the batteries. The best solution is to get a battery isolator from an RV or boating supply house and hook the batteries up thru it.

Art

Reply to
Wood Butcher

Wire batteries in SERIES

John

Reply to
John

Brain fart, meant to say

Wire batteries in PARALLEL

John

Reply to
John

Virtually all modern battery isolators are full bridge design and will have

4 terminals: batt 1, batt 2, load, and charger.

Art

Reply to
Wood Butcher

Telco's run multiple cells connected in series to make up a "string" of the required voltage. "Strings" are then paralleled to provide the required amp/hour rating desired. The battery strings, rectifiers and load all connect to a common buss. They do not use isolators. IIRC the cells we're now using were installed in 1973.

A typical installation is pictured on page 5 of the following:

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Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Reply to
Nova

That's a shocking suggestion. and absolutely *WRONG* for the context.

wiring in series (pos to neg) gives double the voltage.

NOT what one wants for this kind of a situation.

Reply to
Robert Bonomi

Wire them together using Option one, but instead of hooking the pump directly to one battery, put the positive from the pump on one battery and the negative from the pump on the other battery. That way, the bank will appear to the charger and pump as one huge battery and you will eliminate the problem of discharging one battery instead of both.

Reply to
Mark Hopkins

10-15 years" and cost kilobucks is a very different beast than two car batteries in a basement.

Larry -- this issue is known, understood, and -solved-. Use an isolator.

Max

Reply to
Max

|Don't do it.... Storage batteries have an internal resistance factor that |will discharge another battery connected in parallel unless they are exactly |equal in every way. difficult to achieve even if they are new identical |batteries. They will discharge each other. There is an isolator that is used |in motor homes etc. that will solve this problem. It is 2 diodes that will |allow current to flow out of each battery to a load (Your pump) only. It |must have a current capacity large enough for the load intended. You will |also require another isolator to charge them, Same idea, It will allow |current to flow from the charger to the batteries only and not between them. |Both isolators connected properly will allow normal function of double the |battery capacity but prevent a cross connection between them. One battery |connection can be commonly connected. There may be a combination unit |available. Check with a RV. supply co.

I've seen this same misinformation given in rec.outdoors.rv-travel several times. It is totally incorrect!

Battery isolators are used in RVs for only one purpose; to isolate the "house" battery from the "starting" battery such that running down the house batteries doesn't leave you stranded. *That* is the function of the isolator.

Lets me offer this simple analogy for parallel batteries, because they are nothing more than storage reservoirs for electrical energy. Consider two buckets (A & B) of water sitting on the floor with a pipe connecting them at the bottom. If you fill Bucket A, the level in B will rise right along with it. Likewise, if you remove water from either, the level of the opposite will drop the same amount. (The height of both above the floor will be equal; the principle of the water level)

Note that one bucket *does not* drain the other. Why on Earth should it? Where would the energy go?

To extend the analogy to the isolator case, consider that you want to water the garden with water from one bucket, but the other supplies drinking water and you don't want to run out of that. The connecting pipe is modified to include two one-way check valves. The water supply that fills the buckets connects to the check valves so that water can flow in, but not back to the supply. Water for the garden is taken from Bucket A, but the check valves prevent the backflow of water from Bucket B, thus preserving the drinking water supply.

The electrical equivalent of a check valve is a diode. Battery isolators are nothing more than two of them connected such that the charging system can fill (charge) both batteries simultaneously while preventing separate loads from draining both.

Connect the batteries in parallel (+ to +, - to -) and don't worry about it.

Reply to
Wes Stewart

It is not good practice to directly connect batteries in parallel, as an earlier response stated batteries do have internal resistance and unless the batteries are exactly matched the higher charged battery will discharge to the level of the lower one. If you don't believe it do the Kirchoff analysis. In emergency situations batteries are connected in parallel, such as when jump starting a car, but as you will notice there is an ititial spark and heavy current flow from the donor battery trying to charge the dead one.

The analogy of the two water buckets doesn't hold water in this case because you overlook the connection between the individual cells of the batteries. One cell can becomes high resistance, quite common, in which case the capacity of that battery becomes virtually zero; or if a cell partially shorts, due to buckling of the plates or sediment shorting the plates, in which case the battery terminal voltage drops.

In professional installations the solution would be two batteries controlled by a differential relay so when the first battery drops to its rated discharge voltage it would be dropped from circuit and the second connected. In this application the diode isolators would probably be the best alternative.

Bernard R

Reply to
Bernard Randall

Correct, and in fact if the recipient battery is "dead enough", the stranded car won't start until that battery has built up some minimum level of charge. For this reason, it's of the utmost importance to start the donor car first, so that the energy needed to recharge the dead battery comes from the donor car's *alternator* instead of its battery -- lest you wind up with *two* cars needing a jump start.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter, send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Reply to
Doug Miller

-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Reply to
Nova

Do you think the spark may be caused by the fact that one of the batteries is dead?

-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Reply to
Nova

| |> Lets me offer this simple analogy for parallel batteries, because they |> are nothing more than storage reservoirs for electrical energy. |> Consider two buckets (A & B) of water sitting on the floor with a pipe |> connecting them at the bottom. If you fill Bucket A, the level in B |> will rise right along with it. Likewise, if you remove water from |> either, the level of the opposite will drop the same amount. (The |> height of both above the floor will be equal; the principle of the |> water level) |>

|> Note that one bucket *does not* drain the other. Why on Earth should |> it? Where would the energy go? |>

| | |> Connect the batteries in parallel (+ to +, - to -) and don't worry |> about it. |>

| |It is not good practice to directly connect batteries in parallel, as an |earlier response stated batteries do have internal resistance and unless the |batteries are exactly matched the higher charged battery will discharge to |the level of the lower one.

So what? Be an optimist, the battery with the lower terminal voltage has been *charged* to a high voltage. The total AH capacity remains the same except for the slight I^2R loss.

|If you don't believe it do the Kirchoff |analysis.

Oh please, I'm a retired EE, don't try to baffle me with big words.

|In emergency situations batteries are connected in parallel, such |as when jump starting a car, but as you will notice there is an ititial |spark and heavy current flow from the donor battery trying to charge the |dead one.

So what? *You* do a Kirchoff analysis and tell us why this surprises you. | |The analogy of the two water buckets doesn't hold water in this case because |you overlook the connection between the individual cells of the batteries.

That's why they're called "batteries", they are a collection of cells. I didn't overlook anything of the sort. But if this baffles you, change "batteries" to "single cells" and connect them in parallel. The charge/discharge analogy continues to "hold water."

|One cell can becomes high resistance, quite common, in which case the |capacity of that battery becomes virtually zero;

So what? If it has high internal series resistance, it becomes less of a voltage source and more of a current (limited) source. So it may not contribute to the load current, but it certainly doesn't detract from it either. The *high internal resistance* sure the hell isn't discharging anything, as was the misguided concern of the post to which I originally responded.

|or if a cell partially |shorts, due to buckling of the plates or sediment shorting the plates, in |which case the battery terminal voltage drops.

So what? A failure can occur in a stand alone battery too. I guess that means we shouldn't use batteries; they might fail afterall.

| |In professional installations the solution would be two batteries controlled |by a differential relay so when the first battery drops to its rated |discharge voltage it would be dropped from circuit and the second connected. |In this application the diode isolators would probably be the best |alternative.

There are millions of RVs running around (one of them parked outside my house) and who knows how many solar energy installations that are using many multiples of parallel connected batteries. Do failures ever occur? Sure, usually from abuse in the charge/discharge cycle, but *not* because there is something inherently wrong with parallel connections. See:

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stand by my earlier remarks.

Reply to
Wes Stewart

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