O/T: Opinion AKA: LipStick On A Pig

[fredfighter]

I disagree.

I offered to explain the causative relationship between changes in atmospheric carbon dioxide and global temperature change.

I did not offer to engage in a wide ranging discussion of other aspects of the issue, reagardless of where your principle interests lie, though I may be happy to do so once we have dispensed with the fundamentals.

Perhaps you didn't understand.

I offered to explain that causative relationship so long as we restrict the conversion to science, and conduct it in a civil manner.

E.g., if we are to have this discussion, we will not be using language such as scaremongers, Peace Prize Boy, earth worshiping pantheism, socialist/Marxist political ideology, boogeman, doomsayers, arrogant presumption, deep scientific sages, and drone followers because those and similar terms are not condusive to scientific understanding or fivil discussion, indeed they are used to prevent any such discussion from taking place.

[Tim Daneliuk]

Lead-Acid can be recycled up to a point, but at some point they are done. Today, as best I know, they just get tossed at that point.

NiCad has the problem having Cadmium in them - another not very nice heavy metal.

I doubt LiIon have the energy density for a car, but perhaps they've come far enough to do that too. In any case, you do have some problem with the remaining Li when things are done.

The point is that all engineering is the art of tradeoff. There is no free lunch in science just as there is none in economics (or personal relationships or work or ...). This doesn't stop the chowderheaded environmentalist fanatics from finding magic solutions (to often ill formed or even bogus problems) on some regular basis...

[Tim Daneliuk]

I'm fascinated to hear your explanation of causality. Because ... if you actually have one that holds up, you will have done something the finest scientists on the planet have yet to do and you will be famous.

As to the surrounding socio-political discussion. You may wish to limit yourself to science for purpose of trying to show causality ... and I will listen honestly. But you need to be honest and acknowledge that this is *not* the conversation taking place in the larger culture. The larger discussion is

*all* about the social, political, ideological, and theological and almost entirely absent any real science. Witness for instance, almost any of Gore's pontifications. He takes a small kernel of science, distorts it, extrapolates wildly and then aggrandizes himself by becoming the instrument of our salvation. It's all very High Church.

As I say, we can have the science chat, but it almost doesn't matter - that's not the discussion that actually matters at the moment...

[Lew Hodgett]

I don't think so.

You could have surprised me.

Sweeping?

Really?

Lew

[todd]

I'll give you a hint. The website has the name "johnmccain" in it. The rest is left as a exercise for the reader.

todd

[David G. Nagel]

Let the industry shut down one of the refineries for maintenance and see what happens. Look at Texas right now. The industry down there is almost completely off line due to IKE. Prices are going through the roof. Supply almost exactly equals demand with little for storage.

DN

[Mark & Juanita]

Note the word above, "drastically". Even using your link, there were a number of world events that drove the price of crude up, but not as drastically as we've seen in the past 2 years.

Again, from your link, refined prices started going up in 1999 *before* Bush and Cheney were even elected or for that matter nominated, are you saying that the market was prescient? The prices didn't start rising until

2002.

The information in your link stops at 2006. This is the first year that prices have played with $4 per gallon levels. The fact that prices are coming down right now is due to a couple of factors 1) the summer driving season is ending and prices traditionally come down following that event, and 2) the market could not sustain the levels of price that were seen throughout the summer. Even so, gas prices are still at their highest levels ever following the post-summer season.

[Rod & Betty Jo]

The Chevy Volt (Electric car) scheduled for late 2010 release will use a LiIon battery pack (currently under extensive testing). The battery pack has a expected life of 10 years and a battery cost of $10,000. The car has a

40-50 mile range (under the typical work day commute) with a onboard gas powered generator for a overall 600 mile range.... The car is a interesting concept that if successful will likely turn the auto industry on its ear. Rod

[Fred the Red Shirt]

That is incorrect.

Indeed, that is a major problem.

No.

Was I unclear? Socio/Political/Religious/Ideologial considerations can be separated from the scientific discussion. IMHO, only persons who do not under- stand, or wish to understand, or perhaps more accurately, do not wish OTHERS to understand the science, who insist on redirecting and scientific discussion away from science and into the Socio/Political/Religious/Ideologial arena. =A0

I think you may want to reconsider that last. Don't facts always matter?

THIS (above) is not the start of that discussion. Barring adverse circumstances, I will start it soon.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Well that depends on what standard you have for 'drastic'.

That's odd.

When I look at that plot it shows the prices dropping throughout 2001. I sort of inferred that changes post-2001 were independent of the ups and downs that preceded it.

But maybe you should look at the plot from 1869 to 2004. Then you could give the Republicans credit for the drastic drop that started around 1869 and then point to the rise from 1979 -81 and blame today's prices on Carter.

[J. Clarke]

Tim really needs to get out from under his rock once in a while. Lithium ion has very high energy density, which is why they are being used in laptops and other applications where a lot of power is needed in a small space. Meanwhile, you can lease a fuel-cell Honda right now, today, and drive it home (assuming that they haven't already leased them all out).

As for "a problem with the remaining Li", I'd like to see a statement from a reputable source (read something other than Tim's bunghole) of the nature of that "problem".

[Fred the Red Shirt]

The whole car gets tossed at some point. Lead/Nickel/Cadmium in the car may be the most critical disposal recycling issue.

The nickel; batteries in question appear to be Nickel-Zinc, not nicad. The nickel is still an issue, but not as bad as cadmium or lead.

You can recycle it into thermonuclear weapons.

Seriously:

Lead, cadmium, and nickel are toxic heavy metals that biomultiply in the food chain. Lithium is a 1-A metal, a nutrient, an essential trace mineral. Of course you could OD on it and chronic exposure to much higher than normal levels in your diet would cause long term health problems but it is huge improvement over the others. Low levels of lithium contamination in the environment are about as damaging as low level contamination with sodium, potassium or calcium. The anion would probably merit closer controls.

My point is that facts matter.

Expressing concern over something that is not happening, or concerns about disposal of a benign material used to replace a very toxic one is not condusive to a constructive discussion.

[Mark & Juanita]

Let's keep it simple for you Fred. Were gasoline prices at or above $4 per gallon before or after the 2006 election?

But Fred, in the paragraph above to which I was responding, you asserted that the price of refined petroleum products began rising as soon as Bush/Cheney took office, "as if the companies anticipated the rise in crude prices". IIRC, they took office in 2001, now you are asserting that the plot shows the prices dropping throughout 2001. Prices started rising after 2001 due some rather significant world events.

... and it is comments like these with which you have attained the title of master debater.

/I'm done, I've got better things to do with my time.

[Joe]

What you people forget in your criticisms is that things i.e. gas prices didn't go down the pooper until the democrats took control of both houses of Congress. Why don't you liberals admit that??? Since they took control everything has stalled and went down the drain. The democratic controlled Congress now has less that a ten percent approval rating. Are you liberals proud of that record? The lowest approval rating in history.