All of this poppycock about 'craftsman", tools, etc. BS. Man was considered a craftsman from his ability to do something really nice and appealing from his brain, through his hands and then through the material he worked in. How did "craftsmen" come about 50-100-150, even 1000 yrs. ago with out electric tools?
Now you're being silly. Only seasoned pros know how to make use of those properly and can make those pieces of machinery pay. A Biesemeyer (or better), however, is just one of those things you can't live without, lest you start making junk!
Is there a fence which is MORE basic than a Biesemeyer? (Not including a stick)
My fence is 12-foot long. Is that weird?
r
Where did I say that one needs electric tools in order to become a craftsman? A craftsman with quality tools will put out a better product than one without any quality tools. Is this hard?
You are STILL (gasp) missing the point. "Quality tools" does NOT equal "better product".
It obviously is.
I live without a Bies every time a make a project. My stuff is FAR from junk.
YES! My fence.
It does, assuming we're talking about 'craftsmen'. Unless you want to start handicapping one of the craftsmen. A quality tool will never compensate for incompetence.
Okay. The craftsman (we agree that we are talking about 'craftsmen'?) without the table-saw will put out the same quality/straight cut as the guy who uses a Biesemeyer fence on a table saw.
The craftsman without the router table will make 5-piece doors with the same precision as the craftsman who has a router table.
Remember, they're both craftsmen.
Now, we give both of these craftsmen a table saw. One has a nice, true WW2 blade and a Biesemeyer. The other has a bent, rusty blade with a 1/4" run-out and a stick. Both are asked to cut a 16" x 16" square out of 2' x 2' slab of 2" oak.
I have a feeling that MY craftsman will cut a better piece.
If both are craftsmen like you say, then the one with the rusty blade would replace his blade. He would realize he has run-out and fix it.
Both would cut just as accurately.
What makes you think that a cheap fence, correctly aligned, is any less capable than a Biesemeyer fence??
I see, we're upgrading this comparison with more quality. He would make it a 'quality' device vs a rusty ol' device? He would 'change' the argument?
This is getting sillier by the minute, as I forgot to tell you that your craftsman has a bent shaft as well. You see, his wasn't a quality saw.
A Biesemeyer, or clone, *IS* a cheap fence.
No. We are restoring the saw to it's original configuration (which would have been no rusty blade and no run-out).
It was a poor analogy to begin with.
Sillier indeed.
Cheap is relative.
Then again, as the old argument goes, a craftsman would know how to get good results anyway... and never blame his tools. ;~)
John
Like this:
;)
Stoutman wrote: || Now you're being silly. Only seasoned pros know how to make use of || those properly and can make those pieces of machinery pay. A || Biesemeyer (or better), however, is just one of those things you || can't live without, lest you start making junk! | | I live without a Bies every time a make a project. My stuff is FAR | from junk. | |||| There is nothing exotic or expensive about it. In fact, I don't |||| think a more basic piece of gear exists. ||| ||| More basic than a Beis fence? Have you seen mine? ||| || Is there a fence which is MORE basic than a Biesemeyer? (Not || including a stick) | | YES! My fence. | || My fence is 12-foot long. Is that weird?
Hmm. This is beginning to look like a religious war. Seems to me that even true masters might choose different tools to suit their individual talents, personal preferences, and the tasks they take on.
For all users, from new apprentice to master craftsman, the major advantage of power tools is productivity (getting more work done in less time).
There does seem to be a relationship between quality tools and quality of result, but I'm fairly certain that a major component of that relationship is the level of knowledge and experience of the person who chooses the tool.
Note that I said: "the person who chooses the tool" and not: "the person who purchases the tool".
[ Dos centavos ]-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA
Hi Martin,
The *cheapest* way to get into woodworking is to find a school with a woodshop that will let him use it. (The local college here has a woodshop with nice tools for $45 / three month membership.) If he really gets into woodworking he can wean himself off of the school's shop by slowly buying the tools he uses the most there. This strategy may help him avoid the mistake of buying tools he rarely uses...
SailorDave
1540.... is that a SleepNumber?
=0)
The variable wasn't the craftsman. The craftsman was a constant in my argument. The quality of the tool will help and enhance the skills of that particular craftsman.
When one brings productivity into the mix, well...end of story. But I guess it is possible to take down a 12 x 6 oak board from 6/4 to
4/4 with a sanding block.:0}
The constant improvement in tools over the centuries would indicate that many craftsmen, at one point or another, dropped his arms and sighed: "If that $%^^%#$^ plane just had a longer shoe"..... "I could do so much better!!!" The evolution of tool quality indicates to me that craftsmen were always looking for a more accurate and better way. Improvement of productivity came along as a way to justify the expense of those quality tools. But it was the craftsmen who wanted and needed the quality tools to improve their work.
At NO time did I suggest that buying a quality tool will turn a nOOb into a craftsman.... but it WILL help him in putting out better results.
That is a whole different kettle of fish. If I blow a chord during a session, I would never blame my guitar... I would turn it into a feature. A craftsman knows how to cover his screw-ups better than a nOOb.
Funny, there are a lot of people out there making really nice things without a Biesemeyer. My father, for example, did some really amazing work and never owned better than a benchtop saw.
Exactly true. You can take a skilled woodworker, give them crap tools and they'll still make good projects, but you can't take a new woodworker, stick them in Norm's shop, and have them make anything but crap. Tools don't make the man, the man makes the tools.
Brian, Brian...can't you tell when I am being silly?
Now take that 'man makes the the tools' and give him good ones. THAT was MY point.
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