I am getting ready to work on our stairway. When we purchased the place the stairs were carpeted. We removed the carpet and plan on hard surface stairs. The stringers up each side will be painted the trim color. I thought of staining and varnishing the treads and risers. The only problem I have is the turning point half way up. These transition treads are large triangles made of fir plywood and I feel they will not look good finished like the other solid fir treads. Should I change out the triangles with solid fir? The long side on the triangles is about 4' Any other ideas? Other finishing ideas?
Is there some noticeable difference between the fir treads? Or, are you possibly thinking that the wider turning point treads won't stain the same? Sorry, but I'm a little confused trying by your question.
Considering that you've removed the carpet and are just going with bare wood treads, you're probably right, either now or eventually. If the plywood treads are veneered fir, then the veneer will probably wear away fairly quickly due to traffic. If they're both just fir, one solid, one plywood, I've never seen solid fir that looks exactly the same as firred plywood.
Whatever plywood you're using, mainly because it's layered, it will probably show wear and tear much quicker than any solid wood. Apologies, maybe someone else can come up with a constructive suggestion.
It's called a "landing" ... I would remove the fir plywood from the landing and replace with the same material as the treads (solid fir?), taking great pains to insure they are the same thickness so that you don't cause stumbling, then stain and finish with a polyurethane of your choice.
If you don't do that, it will never stand a chance at matching. Most fir plywood is rotary cut veneer faced, giving your fir appearance a totally different profile than a plain, flat cut board.
Unless you hand pick your fir boards for appearance, they won't match much better. The old growth fir used many years ago was tight grained stuff that was surprisingly hard for a soft wood. The growth rings were nice and tight. Your challenge will be finding that tight ringed stuff somewhere.
How important is that? It is really odd to me. Folks that are very spatially challenged can go up stairs and pick out ONE riser that is
1/2" off. Weird. When I was learning to cut stairs, my boss would scream at anything over 1/4". I didn't really understand for years what a trip hazard a fraction of an inch could be.
Hopefully some high resin, long oil finish that is made specifically for floor duty. If you stain, don't forget the conditioner before applying. Fir will let you know exactly what the definition of "blotchy" should be.
Codes vary, but our local code requires no more than 3/8" variation from tread to tread, and no greater than 3/4" variation from first step, to last at finished floor above. Besides, I'm one of those who can tell immediately if stairs don't comply, on the first trip up/down. A phenomenon apparently attributed to "muscle memory".
And, like your boss at the time, I'm also one of those who raise holy hell with framers/finish carpenters about this issue ... to the point of making a spreadsheet and posting it on the unfinished stairwell noting any 'out of code' variations and what must be done to correct them (Leon has probably witnessed one of those "spreadsheets"). :)
I've learned to pay the utmost attention to the issue during framing due to the inherent sloppiness of the culture who builds houses, because an otherwise perfectly built house will fail a building "final" and no COO can be issued over something most consider minutiae (damned expensive to tear out a finished stairwell in a new house); because of the ever looming possibility of a future lawsuit; and mainly because I don't want anyone to get hurt on a project for which I was responsible ... particularly an unsuspecting child or elderly person.
Sad, but true ... a few years ago I mentioned to a cousin that she really wanted to check her stairs because there a 1 7/8" difference from first step to the landing above, a straight run, which I noticed the first night we spent there. They were proud, first time general contractors on their own home, there were no inspection requirements in the area which was unincorporated at the time of construction, and she also did NOT want to hear ANY criticism of *her* house, thank you very much!
Three years ago her elderly MIL fell and broke a hip coming down, and last summer she, herself, did the same, breaking a leg bad enough to have surgery to insert a pin.
I could tell by her attitude that she originally thought I was FOS ... sad thing is, I doubt she will admit the issue to this day.
AAMOF, my youngest daughter spent last summer there as a guest while going to summer school, and it was one of the things I cautioned her about ... particularly when carrying anything in both arms on a trip down.
I attribute part of my fixation on this issue to age ... I definitely don't need any broken parts while I'm responsible for pulling the wagon in these troubled times.
In the uk if any stairs wer built that far out of spec they wouldnt be allowed to be fitted .
When i did my apprenticeship if any treads or risers were more than 1/16" or
1.5mm out then you would have to remake the stringers and take a right bollocking off the forman , this covered all types of stringers wether shop or site made , same with plumb of the newel posts and when fitted the treads had to have no more than 1/16" fall when the stairway was finished
The reality of the situation is that I would be tickled to get a 1/16th, am happy to get an 1/8th, insist on a 1/4, and often have to settle for the code allowed 3/8th.
The framers, who in times passed when I was coming up worked to "an 1/8 in
8", now seem to think that "1/2 in 8" is something to shoot for, and which they, more often than not, don't achieve.
For the most part, and last time I visited, there is still a good deal of "pride of workmanship" in the UK.
Here we have to contend with an unbelievably insolent, total lack of same.
It is an appalling situation, but one quite indicative of a failing culture, sorry to say.
Same here. I personally think that's generous as hell, but there are those around that think those tolerances are unreasonable. I always think; "why aren't they ALL the same?"
I am that guy as well. I can go ass over teakettle when the staircase constructors didn't allow for 1/2" pad with 50 oz plush carpet over it when framing an exposed wooden tread staircase.
Gawd, I got a belly laugh out of that one! A >>spreadsheet
Inspector: "Sorry guys, gotta red tag this SOB ... a three month old baby may crawl up here and stick it's little head between that baluster and post!!"
I live in Nashville, TN, and there has been a huge homebuilding boom in the area and surrounding counties. The lack of craftsmanship is is both embarrassing and disheartening. It has a lot to do with the sheer quantity of building, coupled with the demand for fast turnaround.
You end up with fly-by-night crews, with lots of irresponsible, unskilled, uncaring illegal and *and* legal laborers with no accountability or pride in their work. The foreman ends up being the first guy who speaks english and spanish who shows up 3 days in a row, not high or hung-over.
With the sheer volume of construction, I am certain there is NO WAY these houses are getting proper inspections. I'm equally certain that if I chose to, I could make a very good living by just fixing other people's mistakes. I already have a long, rather comedic, list of problems I've repaired for friends.
One example was my friend's half million dollar house in which the electrical outlets in one entire room weren't even wired. The outlets were in the wall with the covers on, but no wiring in the wall. Same house... subfloor plywood in living room just floating on the joists, no glue, no nails, no screws. Add to that, some sheets were 3/4, some were
5/8.... someone had spread drywall mud on the seems to even it out.
It is an interesting philosophy problem when you start talking about the facets of craftsmanship.
Of course, what you are describing is an outright screw job of some poor client, no quality control, and outright fraud by the builder. Poor workmanship is just a by product of a criminal builder.
Gauging the speed of delivery/time on the job/and hard cost - to - craftsmanship ratio is a tough nut to crack.
I have two clients in my book that don't care what it costs to have me on the job as long as they get exactly what they want. One owns (outright!) a large chain of walk in med clinics, and the other is a thoracic surgeon.
Quality is the object for them. Materials, finishes, workmanship, and to some extent design as well are all in my purview. As long as I deliver, they will pay the freight.
However, my bread and butter clients are not nearly as cognizant of the perceived "old world craftsmanship ethic" or sometimes even plain old quality. Most of the time, they are like us when we buy a tool; they want the most for the least.
My client target is the one that tells me I wasn't the cheapest, but they like my references (or work if they have seen it) so they are signing a contract with me. They are willing to pay more to get more.
When you strike that balance, you have enough money in a project to do a good job, stay in business and still have the ability to have pride in your work.
Now, if you are following along where I am going, imagine this: Try to find the folks that are already well trained and experienced, have pride in their work, consistently show up, play well with the other "craftsmen", and work inexpensively enough that you make consistent money with them as employees.
My experience with employees is surprisingly not connected to money. I pay top wage and expect good work. But my personal experience is that most of the trades people (33+ years in the trades personally) either make good employees or they don't.
Money, good treatment, bribes, or gifts for the family, won't keep them if their traveling bone starts acting up. It encourage them to call you when they are back in town. I have guys that have left on good terms that show up after being gone for a few years that I will hire in a second if I need them.
I think construction/trades guys that aren't a product of the union environment are gypsies by trade, and when things are going well they feel like they could get a job anywhere. They're right. And when they start following the building boom, look out.
Codes do vary but the municipalities we work in are using the International Residential Codes for stairs. These changed some in '06 and most framers were/are not aware of some of the changes. The IRC requires a max of 7 3/4" rise (changed from 8") also the "greatest riser height shall not exceed the smallest by more than
3/8". There is no exception for the top or bottom rise. This is essentially a +/- 3/16" variance. Lastly, the most common problem is the 2006 changes require a minimum of 10" tread depth but that is now measured from nose to nose (not riser to nose). This actually requires an 11" tread depth assuming that you have a 1" nose overhang on the treads. There are still a lot of stairs around here being framed with less than a 10" run (11" tread) which are technically not legal.
Yea.. the Fundy-Rights like the idea of owning a clone... as long as it doesn't involve any real stem-cell research.. you know, the kind of stuff that could actually heal people? There is no money in healthy people. But actually 'owning' a clone is something that would appeal to a neocon. That research was so inconveniently interrupted when Bergen-Belsen was liberated. I guess the 'clone' statement was just a Freudian slip.
Embryonic stem cell research has led to very little advance in the field and very many dead ends. Whereas Adult stem cell research has already produced therapies and treatments successful for many years in areas such as spinal cord injury, cancers including leukemia, Parkinson?s disease and others.
Regardless of the moral debate surrounding the issue, common sense leads one to think it's wiser to focus research on areas that are already producing promising results, rather than areas that have led nowhere.
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