Kitchen floor

I can't speak for *most people*, but I love my dogs, and they're an important part of my family.

It is? What did a cat ever do to you? I'd rather have cats in the house (and the strays in the neighborhood) than disease-carrying vermin that try to get in and spoil my food. Of course, that's just one guy's opinion.

Now these are good reasons to dislike some dogs, and I tend to agree that there are a lot of problem animals around. However, it's like anything else- you see and hear the ones that are causing trouble, and have no reason to notice the majority of them that behave themselves. While it's not always effective, call your local animal control and report the irresponsible pet owners- that's not going to make you feel better if the junkyard dog next door keeps you up all night, but it's about all you can do.

People do that too. When a dog does it, it's usually the owners' fault.

Why is that surprising? I know you probably will not buy it, but most dogs aren't any more likely to attack you than your neighbor is. Some of them look really mean, but then again, so have many of my neighbors. Dogs are social animals, and they act accordingly.

Here's the thing I wanted to reply to the most- my wife and I decided not to have any children. I really, really wanted children, but my side of the family tree is so full of crime, violence, mental illness and drug abuse that we can't justify creating children that are likely to be flawed enough to represent a danger to the community just because we *want* to. We may adopt someday- but the expense and stress of the process is too much for us right now, so our two dogs are our surrogate children. They are in fact hunting dogs- they both go pheasant hunting, and the beagle is a good rabbit dog. Neither of them are allowed to bark outside of the house unless they are working, and each of them are tethered when we let them out so they do not scare people walking past. The point is that there *are* good reasons to own dogs, and there are responsible owners. There are also jerks- but they should not be held up as examples of typical pet owners and used as a justification for shutting out a type of animal that has evolved alongside humanity for tens of thousands of years as a trusted companion, guard, and co-worker. We made them what they are today, and to turn our backs on dogs is to break a very deep commitment to a species that helped us in many ways to become what we are today. Useless? Pointless? Hardly...

I'd like to include the parents of _those kids_ in the new extermination camps. The taggers and mailbox bashers, motorcycle riders who do donuts on lawns and public areas.... Why is it kids have such a problem with property rights? "I didn't know who owned it." Well, you knew it wasn't _you_, why isn't that enough?

On Mon, 30 May 2005 03:24:47 -0400, the inscrutable "Upscale" spake:

Now cite the amount of violence in the world brought about by the incessant barking of said dogs.

Again, I LOVE IT!

But just think how much psychological benefit there would be to actually having a human relationship. I know there are people who substitute dog/cat relationships with human relationships, and that is not a good thing.

Maybe sometimes, but we have things like smoke detectors, motion sensors and burglar alarms too. Dogs aren't very good in this regard, because they bark at everything that goes bump in the night and it is a million to one against it being dangerous. The dog barking just becomes a part of everyday life that isn't taken seriously.

But those dogs aren't the ones I was talking about. They are sheltered and maintained by people who are paid to do it.

But that is just sensationalist fantasy. If your home is going to be robbed, it will be when you are not at home. If you are not at home and the dog is, the dog can be dealt with by the criminal. I've seen shows where a burglar goes into a house, pats the dog on the head, and then goes about his business. Throw some doggie treats in the bathroom and close the door on the dog when it runs after them and no more doggie. If a dog is raised to be good with children, it won't be a very good guard dog. But in fact, dogs are a much greater danger to children than random violence.

I know you are just trying to be funny with that last paragraph, but it is actually a good example of the straw man arguments used when emotional subjects like this come up. What we really need is a change of culture and for some people to stand up and say that the Emperor is ass naked and that there should be a rational component to the decision of becoming a dog owner. The laws the way they stand are hardly unfair to dog owners. We can't play loud music anytime we want, but a dog barking all the time is OK. We aren't allowed to maintain eyesores or safety and sanitation nuisances, unless they are somehow related to dog ownership.

Speaking of a strawman ...

Most areas have barking/fouling dog laws and they Are enforced.

Well, I won't try to talk you out of your beliefs, because they are emotional rather than rational.

They've done plenty. They do many of the same things dogs do, just on a smaller scale and they actually can do a lot of the same damage rodents do, like making homes for themselves under houses, tearing out insulation, etc. Ever heard a cat in heat, or a cat fight? It ranks up there with a dog barking. As for property damage inside a house, cats are almost up there with dogs scratching furniture and urinating on everything. Rodents can be controlled with traps and denying them access to your house. If mice are getting in, then you have a lot of maintenance to do. Few cats are good mousers, because the cat should be a little wild and most of all HUNGRY, and most house cats don't qualify.

I have yet to meet the dog that wasn't a problem. All my neighbors' dogs bark at anything that moves or makes a sound. Nice ones, mean ones, big ones, small ones, it's all the same racket.

No doubt some people don't have much more sense than animals, but these kinds of people aren't adopted by well-meaning people and moved into their homes. For millions of otherwise clean people with well maintained homes, pets do the overwhelming majority of property damage. I've never lived with a dog or cat that doesn't have 'accidents', and once they get started, it only goes downhill from there. They all shed fur, knock things over, cats scratch, dogs chew and on and on.

You're right, I don't buy it. No human being has ever chased me trying to, and sometimes succeeding at, biting me. Moreover, that statement isn't born out by some easily verifiable facts. There about five million dog bites and 350,000 emergency room visits each year because of them. 77% of victims are children.

I would strenuously argue that dogs are a poor substitute for a family. If you are worried about bad blood, then you should really think twice about adoption. It isn't the stable, well-grounded and intelligent who give up their children for adoption. Sorry if that ruffles any feathers, but I'm just trying to say it like it is, however painful that may be. I'm not trying to end the existence of canis domesticus. I'm just trying to get people to think of the consequences of dog ownership in a more rational way. Too much of our culture when it comes to dogs is based on Walt Disney and other childrens fantasy stories. If all dogs go to heaven, then hell may have some distinct advantages. If my neighbors had one dog each, that alone would be a huge improvement. Even dog advocacy groups tell us there are too many dogs and that dog owners have to change and spend even more time and money on these already high maintenance beasts. Unfortunately, people don't easily change, and there could be another message going out to the public that is never heard--the alternative of not owning a dog at all. If there were fewer dogs, more of them might actually get the maintenance they need.

If you're not there already, perhaps you should move to Britain. I believe there's a sizable population there that is advocating the inception of a bunch of "Nanny" laws. You'd fit right in.

My neighbor complained to the dog warden about another neighbor's dogs (five of them) and he was told nothing he could do until 10:00 PM. Does that make him a straw man?

Makes it a noise ordinance.

Can't complain about the "Boompa, Boompa" cars riding by until after hours either.

I couldn't resist adding to this OT rant.

When my wife was 16 or so and still living with her parents they had a German Shepard dog, one day as her father was pulling into the drive way a couple guys with guns jumped into his car and drove him around the block relieving him of all his valuables. When they got back to the house they were going to go inside but the large barking dog convinced them otherwise. What do you think the thugs would have done to my future wife if the dog deterrent weren't there?

We now have a Shepard mix dog, very well trained and doesn't bark unless necessary. The rat dogs that live next door bark whenever I am in the backyard, very annoying. The key to well behaved city dogs is lots of exercise and training. When a poorly trained dog starts eating the house the owner banishes them to the backyard where the neighbors suffer. A few minutes of training and a walk a day can do wonders for a 'problem' dog.

Back on thread, use tile, it's tough and wear resistant especially if you regularly use that silicone grout sealer stuff like we are all suppose to. Some selectively placed carpets with padded backers will help with dropped items and make working in the kitchen a bit more comfortable.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 18:31:39 GMT, the inscrutable Lobby Dosser spake:

Yes, some laws are out there. Being enforced? Bull Fracking SH*T!

About the only time I've heard them being enforced is when it's after

I've been exposed to this from pet owners in every city I've ever lived or visited. I'll bet there's not a single person here who doesn't have a nuisance animal living near them, Lobby. The only folks who don't think it's a nuisance for a dog to bark 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, are the pet owners themselves. They don't hear it for some reason.

When I'm crowned king, pets and religion will be outlawed as the world becomes a better place.

I'm not surprised that people in England would want to discourage obnoxious neighbors with an average of over 800 people per square mile. If you could give some examples of these proposed laws, I could better tell you whether I agree with them or not. We have noise laws now, grass can't be over 12", old cars need current plates, etc. If you ever lived in a neighborhood where 'do what thou wilt is the whole of the law', it is easy to understand why they exist, and why some communities have covenants that go beyond that. I would agree it is ridiculous to dictate the color of a person's house, but putting the kibosh on barking, snarling dogs is just common sense.

In some areas maybe, but in general I would say that enforcement is very lax. If it is an extreme case or something bad happens, then some ordinances might be enforced, but I have seldom seen it here in the rust belt. Maybe if a person wanted to be the neighbor from hell, they might get something done about some less extreme but still bothersome cases, but that's what it would take. I don't want to go to war with my neighbors, but fewer dogs would be nice, and I know for a fact that many is the time they don't want to hear the dogs any more than I do. I just wish people would think more before getting a dog. People see puppies and can't resist taking one home, but then we all live with the consequences when it isn't a puppy anymore.

How about talking to the neighbors? If that doesn't work, maybe some conflict resolution. Where I live - upper left coast - we have a city sponsored, volunteer conflict resolution team. Haven't had to use it, but as I understand it they'll resolve the situation peacefully or, if there is a violation, bring in the hired guns.

I am a dog owner, but cannot abide 24x7 barkers.

I Seem to recall a more-or-less applicable one.

Something about "... and an hour later, you feel this urge to do it again."

... snip

Nah, for some reason comparing someone to a fascist is bad, doesn't seem to have the same weight when being compared to a communist.

Whew, that's a relief! :)