Al says he'd rather have ratBoy Bush protecting his backsides in our llittle imaginary foxhold question than Michael Moore.
But Al, the rat wouldn't even get in the same hole with you unless his servants could fumigate the foxhole and you first or for that matter, me.
We go in the servant's entrace, don't you understand that boy? We'd have to settle for Meatloaf Moore. Wonder how many Carhardts the rat has actually worn out in his life?
Geez, don't we have _enough_ threads on the election already?
Thread is not about the election, J. Clarke. Thread is about the wimp pretending to be warrior. I see a big difference.
If he wasn't up for election would anybody give a damn?
It isn't??? Perhaps you should drop the style of writing that you are using take this dime and go call some one that cares.
theButler did say:
I see a dead horse. Why don't we beat it some more...
Yeah, me. If this sissy hadn't of had daddy bail him out and and had taken his rightful place serving his coutnry, it might be his friggin back aching for the past 40 years and not mine.
So I do give a god damn. And would be damn glad to pass the ache on to you too. You want it?
May be if you crawl back under your rock, you will not be so scared.
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:37:46 GMT, "Leon"
Leon, clever line! Where did you learn this one? And also where did you find it in yourself to admire male cheerleaders. An Andover cheerleader on top of being a draftdodger.
When you got hooked and reeled in did you fight much?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:48:02 GMT, "Leon"
Answer the question, brain. Another ratBoy Bush brainless retort but how about the back, you want it?
You note Leon it was the rat who was scared of bin Laden, you did notice that didn't you? Talked big and then ran. Alligator mouth and hummingbird ass, story of his life.
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:50:31 GMT, "Leon"
Well we know you almost certainly didn't if you are old enough. Guard for you too? Obviously not, your ambience tells us that. Or five student deferrents like the cadaver or maybe seven like old denture breath Ashcroft? Or did you run off to England like Slick?
George 'ratBoy' Walker Bush.... your hero. A coward.
Or maybe neither of yours would be aching or both or maybe he'd have ended up your CO and gotten you both and everybody else in your unit killed or maybe you'd have seen that coming and fragged him and spent the rest of your life in prison if you didn't get executed. But most likely he'd have been somewhere else and had no effect whatsoever on your life. And he'd _still_ be where he is now, only you'd have to find something else to whine about.
If he were not in politics would you have even _heard_ of "this sissy"? And if it's not about the election then why are you bitching about this particular sissy and not the tens of thousands of others who managed to avoid service in various and sundry ways?
Sorry, but that dog don't hunt.
And since if I keep reading your posts I'm going to get sucked into this discussion, .
Are you always a TWIT?
Not a coward and for sure not a BUTLER. LOL
The crowd who espouse "Candidate 'X' dodged service in Vietnam because he didn't serve there", are denigrating a HUGE majority of their fellow veterans.
There are roughly 9 million Vietnam-era veterans. Only (roughly) 3 million served in Vietnam. Those who bash service in the Air National Guard (which, BTW, served in the very ACTIVE role of nuclear intercept missions in defense of CONUS), or who bash Army National Guard, or who bash active duty vets who were assigned to Germany or Japan, effectively bash TWO-THIRDS of Vietnam-era veterans.
Not everyone went to Vietnam. Many were subject to deployment. Get over it.
Kevin
It didn't quite work that way back in the '70s. The ANG was a lot different than today's ANG, and was mostly a refuge for those who didn't want to go but didn't want to say so.
Nuclear intercept missions? From a part-timer, who didn't show up his last year? They trained, on obsolete equipment, for a mission that never happened.
And that latter part is the crux of the problem most of us have with Bush's military service. It took connections and string yanking to get him into the Guard. When he decided 'enough was enough' he lit out, with no repercussions, and still got an honorable discharge.
I can assure you, as a former corporal in the USMC, that there was no actual 'bug-out when it gets rough or boring' option that ended with an honorable discharge. At least not for the average guy, which is what Shrub tries to portray himself as.
Charlie Self "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith
But the subject at hand is Air National Guard, which *did* serve in Vietnam.
The mission *did* happen. The mission was deterence and intercepts.
Part-timer? Well, okay, if you care to call 53 weeks of initial active duty for training, then another year of training, "part-time". And then
880 hours of flight time logged over the next three years, which is staying pretty darned busy.Bush spent more time on active duty than Kerry, and also volunteered for an active rotation over Vietnam. (He was rejected because they were only accepting pilots with 1,000+ hours for F-102 missions.)
There were waiting lists and strings to be yanked to get into the
*Army* National Guard. The *Air* National Guard was actively recruiting and seeking pilots; Bush himself appeared in a recruiting poster. There was no waiting list, nor strings to be pulled, for someone qualified to be a pilot.Bush met the drill and time requirements every single year he was in the Air National Guard, including the so-called "missing" year. By
1972, the Air Guard was surfeit with pilots with no planes to fly. As you said, the F-102 was obsolete and being phased out. The active war in Vietnam was rapidly drawing down. It would be foolish to retrain an Air Guard pilot when there was a surplus of trained F-4 pilots coming off of active duty.I dunno, Kerry managed to find a way.
Speaking of getting out early, ponder this:
- On 18 February 1966 John Kerry signed a 6-year enlistment contract with the Navy, plus a 6-month extension during wartime.
- On 18 February 1966 John Kerry signed an Officer Candidate contract for 6 years. This included 5 years of active duty & drilling Naval Reserves, and 1 year of inactive reserves.
- John Kerry was discharged from active duty after only 3 years and 18 days on 3 January 1970. With his Naval Reserve contract, he was obligated to attend 48 drills and 17 days active duty for training every year until the end of his obligation (two more years). There is no evidence that he participated in any USNR activity.
- In his letter of 21 November 1969 asking for an early release from active duty, Kerry falsely said, "My current regular period of obligated service would be completed in December of this year."
- While the news media have turned over every possible rock to find Bush's service records (despite his authorization for them to be released), Kerry has steadfastly refused to authorize release of his records.
Please note, I don't denigrate Kerry's Navy service. He voluntarily went to a scary place where Bad Things Happened. His motivations are suspect, and his actions afterward are contemptable (and criminal), but he did serve. So did Bush. So did supply clerks in Germany, or cooks who spent their active duty in CONUS, or National Guard enlisted infantrymen who happened to be in the right place at the right time to get a Guard slot.
But when we're talking about candidates' military service, let's be sure to mention the obligations of BOTH candidates.
Kevin
It is true that both NG and ANG forces were deployed in Vietnam. Most remained in the US. Enlisting in the NG was not a sure bet to avoid serving in Vietnam, but those who did enlist in the NG or ANG were much less likely to end up in Vietnam than were those who were drafted.
False to Fact. Bush volunteered for the Palace Alert program which was flying F-102s overseas but was not flying F102s in Vietnam. The F102 was withdrawn from service in Vietnam before Bush volunteered. The F102 was a missiles-only interceptor, it had no guns and was not designed to carry bombs. It was designed for the sole mission of intercepting bombers. As such it was sub-optimal for the sorties being flown in Vietnam where the enemy had no bombers.
You are correct that he was rejected from the program because he had insufficient experience, but even if accepted, he would not have flown in Vietnam.
Also, one presumes that Bush knew of the minimum stick-time requirement befor he volunteered. According to personal corespondence from one veteran aviator it was commonplace for guys to volunteer for service where they knew they would not be accepted because it looked good in their records.
All of which is fine with me. IMHO none of that reflects poorly on Bush as a young man The misinformation about 'volunteering for Vietnam' does reflect poorly on his campaign but one presumes that Bush does not take an active role in campaign issues.
It is a trying exercise to atempt to follow the chronology. But the worse I have seen is that during that 'missing year' he got behind on drills and made them up later, which was evidently not unusual.
True enough although his Texas ANG group continued to fly the F102 until 1974. I see no reason to suppose that he stopped flying for any reason other than the one he stated--to do political work out- of-state. I'm also sure that wasn't particularly unusual.
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