Read the sources listed below, but short of that:
- jointer planes run 22" to 24" long, generally;
- you can make nice, flat surfaces for joining with them and lots of
- you can use the edge of the plane as your straightedge while planing;
- there are some tricks to creating joinable board edges (e.g., jointing
both boards at once to remove one variable in the process).
"If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be here"
so there is no point to getting a low angle block plane to take a swipe
or two across the edge of a power jointed board to get that sucker dead
on flat and smooth? I've read articles stating that the author will
power joint a board and then run a plane over it to make the edge even
better than what came off the jointer. Does that require a long
jointing plane. No other plane will suffice?
If that IS the case, what use will I get out of a $160 Veritas plane?
You're thinking of the Veritas low-angle SMOOTHING plane, right? (not the
block plane as you've referred to in a few other posts in this thread).
That's a big difference in how you would use the plane. Neither one of
these is meant to be used to joint board edges, at least not ideally.
The best use for the low-angle smoothing plane, IMO, would be to finish
smooth the FACES of particularly difficult (i.e. highly figured) pieces.
Using the smoothing plane on a board edge is fine, if what you want is a
smooth edge. If you start out with a square, flat edge, you should end up
with a square, flat and smooth edge. Technique is critical, though.
So, if you were going to edge glue several boards into a panel, there
wouldn't be much reason to smooth the edges and the power jointer should do
perefectly well at this operation. If you have a door edge, say, that will
be visible and you want to give it a final treatment before finishing, then
a swipe with the smoothing plane might make sense.
I'm no expert mind, you, but that's how I see it.
There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
I think I read about what you mention here in The Handplane Book. I don't
have a jointer, so can't speak from experience, but I can tell you that the
low angle block plane is not the tool you want for this task. You would use
a smooth plane like a number 4 or even a slightly longer plane, set to take
a very fine shaving. As I understand it, low angle planes are mostly for
end grain and maybe grain that has no particular direction. The point is
not to make the work piece straighter than it comes off the jointer though.
The point is to remove any slight ripples left by the rotating cutting head
of the power jointer.
Chris, you understand my dilemma exactly. If I get a smoother (sorry, I
had misspoken earlier when I referred to a block plane) as my first
quality plane (Veritas $160) I was wondering if I could smooth a power
jointed edge to perfection. The edge would already be flat, but the
object of further work would be to remove machining marks, as you noted.
Somebody understands me! :)
Why is your power jointer leaving machining marks? And a jointer plane would do
a better job of smoothing out your rough machining. It's made for that work.
"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill
I DON'T notice any obvious marks unless I rush a piece through on the
first pass. I am just repeating what I've read about guys doing; taking
a pass with a plane before glue-ups. Then I got to thinking that how
flat is the surface gonna stay if I get the results like I got with
tinkering around with a small plane.
After all is said and done, I think I'm gonna order the smoother, but
not for edges. I want something to tweak a board to EXACT length when
the TS gets me within 5 thous and I want it within .002 or better. An
example of when I could have used a very fine length adjustment was when
I edged my desk. I didn't want mitered corners, so I cut the side
edging to exactly the width of the desk top, hiding the end grain with
the front edging. I could NOT sand or machine the front edge flush,
because I used a shaper to put detail on all the edging before attaching
them to the desk. So I couldn't overlap and sand or plane to even out
Charlie Self wrote:
Dodging hornets, I'll say that blade exposure can be kept to such a minimum
that it just plain (plane) makes no difference at all. The length of the
plane sole is important relative to how straight the board is initially, and
how impatient the operator, as comparison to a standard allows even a
short-soled plane to level observed high spots enough to where its sole will
bridge and average the remaining.
Aren't you the same one who was giving me grief a couple months ago when I
told you that a jointer could/should be used the same way?
Not sure as to your last point about the grief, but it's entirely
possible. I don't remember the specifics. Right now my take on a
jointer is that you get two flat surfaces out of the deal. One edge,
one face. Then you go to the TS to true up the other edge. Then you go
to the thickness planer to make the untouched face parallel and flat.
And to avoid flamers, take some material off both sides of the board,
rather than just the side that I mark an 'X' on. :)
My question is more related to starting with a totally flat edge. The
idea is that some woodworkers like to run a hand plane over a jointed
edge for that "edge" (pun intended) in quality of a glue up joint. So
what I want to know is if you are going to just cut a smidge from the
edge with a smaller plane, do you end up with a worse edge than if you
just rely on a well power jointed edge? Is anyone understanding what I
getting at? (Cramer, for god's sake, don't answer, you are just an
absolute jerk of grand proportions and I can't imagine why anyone would
respond to you).
If you take the perfect stroke with minimum blade exposure, all's the same.
Maybe someone in the group can help me, but I believe the theory behind it
is that you have hardened and burnished your jointed faces, and will get a
better glue joint by "opening" the pores. I think it's crap, and glue off
the jointer or the TS with a good blade.
You use a plane to do two things, if you're a basic Norm - trim and surface.
I'm an agnostic on this issue of which method yields the best joint too!
Just 2 days ago I ripped a hunk of face-glued poplar to 1/16" thick,
soaked it in water and bent the piece 180 degrees to form a U shaped
trough. The Titebond glue held fast in that 1/16" thick piece (there
were 2 glue lines in it), even when wet, so I don't know how much better
I can get glue to stick! :) But I'm always open to suggestions...except
the rude ones from the miscreants. <g>
I will often take a plane to clean up the edge after I've run a board
through on my jointer (PM 60). When the knives on my jointer are
fresh and recently set, the surface left by the jointer is very, very
good and runing a hand plane over the surface does little to improve
things. However, as the knives wear a bit, maybe develop a nick or
two, develop a slight crown or hollow (were talking maybe .002"), or
if I run a board over the jointer too fast, using a hand plane will
improve things a bunch. So now I use a plane to clean up edge joints
all the time. Do you need a long plane (i.e. #6, #7, #8) to do this?
No, because the edge is square to a face and straight. The plane,
finely tuned, is just there to take off a whisper thin shaving to
clean up slight imperfections in the surface. Now, sometimes the
edge, generally due to a technique screw up on my part, needs a little
more work. Then I make sure I pull out a jointer. What plane do I
usually use? I have two #7's (a new Clifton and an Type 11
Stanley/Bailey) in my arsenal and I have the Type 11 tuned to take a
very thin shaving (IIRC .0015") and I leave a 386 jointer fence
attached to it always. So, when I clean up a jointed edge before a
glue up, or to fix a bonehead error, I just reach for my Bailey #7
w/386 fence and pass it down the edge. That way I'm consistent and the
edge always comes out great. But in reality, if the edge is straight
and square then any finely set plane will work for cleaning up slight
machine marks (generally scallops)
Now THAT'S a finely detailed description of when and with what to clean
up a board. Thanks for the succinctly written explanation of what you
use, and the reasons for bothering to plane a jointed surface. You have
explained this for me in practical terms that I relate to.
To summarize: well tuned, sharp bladed jointer, run at optimum pace,
provides a perfect edge ready for glue-up. Dull blades, less than
stellar technique requires a bit of touch-up.
How am I doing? :)
Steve Wilson wrote:
There you go Dave, a Stanley #7 (in a "Sweetheart" box no less)
and a #386 jointer fence
You better hurry, they will probably be sold by tomorrow.
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Well Dave, it would appear that no one here really knows. Longer planes,
since they ride the high points, can not get down into the lows to plane
them. So what you end up doing is knocking of those high spots. It still
takes a bit of skill but it is easier with a longer plane. I'm not much for
explaining things but you probably get the idea.
Your jointer works with a circular cutter. Your "straight" edge is
actually quite wavy on a glue line level. A jointer plane leaves a
smooth and staight surface for edge gluing. It takes a little practise
to get right, but it does work. It has for hundreds of years. If it
didn't there would be another old tool for the job.
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