Granite and what you don't know.

[Robatoy]

I have spent some time writing specs for an architectural firm in regards to countertops. I specialize in solid surface products, such as Corian, Staron, Meganite, Gibraltar and such. More and more do people ask for upgrades like granite and engineered stone. eStone, as I call it, is basically all the same 'Breton' process. Silestone, Hanstone, CeasarStone, Zodiaq. Granite, however, is not so easily identified and is misunderstood in way too many ways. Hence my post. Acrylic solid surface and eStone *IS* created pretty much the same way. 10-year warranties included. Granite is not. For instance 'Blue Pearl', in my opinion is one of the prettiest of them all. 'Emerald Pearl' can be fantabulous. Now here comes the problem: there are 5 grades of those 'pearls'. Some are soft as butter, some are full of fissures, some are hard as..well...stone. They DO look the same. A fabricator will select his router's running speed and feed-speed depending on hardness of those granites. Some of those decisions are made after a slab is picked up by grippers and a rubber mallet is whacked upon a 5' x 10' sheet. If it rings like a bell, GREAT.. if a dull THUD...not-so-great. When buying granite, you really have to take a very close look at your fabricator. Ask for references and CALL them! You be careful out there! Did you know you can stain granite if you forget to seal it?

r

[Jay Pique]

I've had the opportunity to see "Paperstone" in action. Words fail me. JP

[Robatoy]

Yea...I'm just starting to learn about that stuff. So much to learn. You do know that 'laminate', like Arborite and Formica and such already are 'paper' products?

[OneThou]

Robatoy,

What do you think of the quartz surfaces? Do they look as nice as granite?

Durable? Thanks

Joe

[Robatoy]

VERY durable. Some of the 'patterns' are uncanningly like the ones you'd find in nature. Tropical Brown granite and its quartz cousin are so close. I like quartz countertops because they are so predictable in colour.

As nice as granite? ...sometimes nicer.

[Andy Dingley]

In principle from empirical reports yes, but with my geologist's hat on I can't think how you manage to do this. Granite is (or ought to be) pretty tough stuff - impervious mineral grains that are closely bonded without any sort of pervious matrix. Barring the odd mechanical fissure, just how do you "stain" granite? What happens here - do the grains change colour, or does some visible stain get absorbed into the material? Which granites (chemically) are prone to it? What substances will cause staining?

[Malcolm Hoar]

Grantites that are low in quartz (and other hard minerals) are softer and more porus. They will absorb water (and stains). The softer minerals can also be etched by acids (e.g. lemon juice).

Obviously, light colored plan granites are more prone to show the stains. I have Blue Pearl GT and that's pretty non-porus and the darker color means stains won't show unless serious. Nevertheless, I seal it every six months; only takes 20 mins.

A near white granite will show the slightest stain. A black granite will show the slightest etching from acids or powerful cleaners.

[Leon]

I rebuilt a kitchen for a customer, he had a counter top company install granite counter tops. Unfortunately the installer broke the piece that goes around the sink. Unfortunately they did not have a piece that was the same shade. Fortunately they were able to oil that portion of the counter top and now you cannot tell the difference in the two pieces, even 3 years later.

[Robatoy]

Thank you for handling Andy's question. Well done. I have nothing to add.

[Robatoy]

Sink cut-outs are the worst in granite... so are cooktops. I have seen a perfect installation with 4 very professional guys go 'snap' when they removed the bracing AFTER the countertop was in place. My supplier now flips the top and CNC's 90-degree grooves and epoxys

1/2" fiberglass cord in around the corners. He says it helps... but if a 400 pound piece of stone decides to snap...it will.

Not long ago, a $ 7000.00 (that's SEVEN THOUSAND) top was ruinied by a ball of plumber's putty. Left an oil stain... and that has happened more than once in my career. Those moments make your heart sink into your boots. Luckily, the problem was at the end of a long stretch of a very popular colour. The fabricator was able to re-use a big chunk.

[Robatoy]

Malcom handled the bulk of the answer. It is the fissures that show up as red lines, in the case of a merlot. Large fields of granite will not stain, it's the fissy bit in between that get you. Plumber's putty on a black top......bad. Red wine on a white-ish top...also bad. That creates lines of badness.

When you pour on sealant, just take a glancing look as to where it soaks in first... There are way more fissures than one would expect. The lower the grade, the worse it gets.

[nailshooter41]

I am real fan of uniformity. Uniformity is good; I don't like having the conversation begining with "I dont' think this is the piece I picked out".

I love the look of some of the granites, but I don't think they are very practical for a hard used kitchen. The feeback I get is that they scratch fairly easily, etch a little sometimes, and the edges can be easy to chip. For me personally, if I have the large skillet full of chicken cacciatore, another large pot of linguine, another of marinara sauce, and the last burner taken with a skillet of fresh chopped garlic in olive oil, I don't want to be watching out for a bump into the edges of the counter, and errant spill that I miss and don't clean up for several hours, etc.

Since most people just admire their pans these days, hard use is not usually a problem. However, for those that do I am hearing a real mixed bag on the feedback for granite. Not near so much so for the quartz products.

I ran into a guy that absolutely LOVES granite tops. He bought a franchise that repairs them (as well as quartz). But says he, granite is 90% of his business. Quartz is soft; a metal or glass mixing bowl can scratch it if slid or moved without picking it up. He fixes a lot of chipped outside corners where something whacked off the edge. He fills and seals a lot as the imperfections in the top gather tiny amounts of gunk that you can see in the lighter colors. He polishes a lot as all the tiny scratches gather and keep new tops from having that mirror finish everyone wants.

He said he is so busy he is running two trucks now, and his company is about a year old. I stopped to talk to him as the repair part of the granite countertop business was something that always intrigued me - ever since I found out what was charged to a lady that set a hot pan down on the top (uh oh...) when she was distracted with something else.

Still looking into it - I like the idea of polishing out and sealing the tops. It looks like that could be a good holiday business for the right employee. Extremely low risk, low material cost, low equipment cost - sounds good to me!

r - if you are still following this thread - what do you think of the new arcylic epoxy based quartz toppings they are putting on formica and her sisters? I saw at a recent show that they sand the old counters down, prep them some way, then apply this goop with the stones in it at about 1/2" thick. It looks like Silestone when it is finsihed, and it looked pretty good. They told me an average kitchen only takes 3 - 4 days and I seem to remember it having a long warranty, too.

Any thoughts?

Robert

[hex]

So at what point does granite stain as badly as concrete? All? Only the cheap stuff?

A well done concrete countertop is prettier than most of the granite installs I've seen. Moreover, concrete readily presents more options for shape and finish -- granite that's not cut along straight lines gets spendy. Granite CT's have just never made sense to me -- it looks like a market entirely driven by "keeping up with the Joneses". Long ago granite was a status symbol -- but that went away when the Borg started selling it. As pointed out in the first post on this thread, you can't generally tell whether it's cheap Borg granite or really good stuff from a high end vendor by site. We are a family of 6 and we still actually cook and eat at home, so that leads me toward solutions that value function as well as form.

hex

-30-

[Charlie M. 1958]

I think a lot of folks would disagree with the above. We did a lot of asking around (of people in the know who were NOT in a position to sell us anything) when we redid our kitchen about 18 months ago. By far, the consensus of opinion was that granite was the way to go, with quartz being a good alternative if you preferred its greater uniformity.

We picked out a relatively dark pattern (you can see it here -

) and even though I've never sealed it, staining has not been a problem. No chips either, and we cook every day, have lots of parties with teenagers wreaking havoc, etc., etc.

[Dave In Houston]

A man after my own heart . . . er, stomach. What time do we eat? My mama's mama was a Pizzo (Sicilian!)

[Zz Yzx]

What are the 'soft" minerals?

Granites consist of varying proportions of quartz, plagioclase feldspar, potassium feldspar (microcline), perthite; some mafic (dark) minerals like amphiboles (hornblende, reibekite) and less commonly pyroxenes (augite, enstatite), and micas (biotite); and lesser proportions of accessroy minerals (epidote, sphene, zircon, clinozoisite, etc.).

None of these minerals are soft or porous; most have minimum hardensses of 6-7 . The mafic minerals may be subject to chemical attack moreso than the quartz and feldspars, but even that should be minimal.

Glass (basically fused quartz with impurities) and hard minerals can be etched with strong acids, but have very low permeabilty and are resistant to "staining" without the presence of acids. I suspect that the granite counters that get stained are from quarries in 'low-quality" granite, i.e. rocks that have been weathered (i.e. the feldspars partially altered to (soft) clay minerals, or quarried from parts of the granitic pluton that underwent late-stage magmatic ("dueteric") alteration (which also causes the feldspars to alter to clay minerals).

Anyway, I'd still like a granite countertop.

-Zz, M.S., PhD.

[Art Greenberg]

My 5+ year-old kitchen has a dark granite (Emerald Pearl, I think) countertop. No stains. Just a few scratches, and a couple of small chips on the top at the front edge (guess I should not have had a square edge treatment put on it).

It hasn't been sealed since new. What should I seal it with?

[J. Clarke]

???? What does a hot pan do to granite?

[The Davenport's]

The granite can crack/break/shatter/otherbadthings from thermal shock.

Not always, but can...enough so that it's best to assume that it will.

Mike

[Malcolm Hoar]

My fabricator recommended this range of products and that's what I'm using:

'm just using one of their sealers -- I don't bother with fancy cleaners/polishes/enhancers etc. A large bottle cost me $50 but I figure it will last me close to a decade.