Gluing up a table top

[Scott Lurndal]

A biscuit is just a loose tenon. A biscuit joiner makes the mortices for the loose tenon.

scott

[Al Spohn]

But are the post-glue up expansion characteristics also true of tenons?

- Al

[patriarch]

"Todd Fatheree" wrote in news:Od-dnTpWoOWtas [e-mail]:

Well, if it were just Norm, I could write it off to a trim carpentry and construction background...

But David Marks uses them all the time. Worse yet, he uses them to attach edging to MDF or plywood panels, some of which he has veneered personally. ;-)

And in some of the works of the Sainted Krenov, veneer over a stable substrate is taken to a high art.

And many of the better works by artisans of an earlier day are veneered, for wide range of valid reasons.

Solid wood has its place. But so do other constructions. Not all furniture with engineered materials come from Walmart.

Patriarch

[Andy Dingley]

Not here.

You mean that nice stable flat stuff that makes such a good substrate for veneer ?

So don't use it. Slide your biscuit jointer sideways to cut a slot, then stick a solid timber spline in there. Now that's pretty much "fine furniture" and it barely takes any longer.

[Todd Fatheree]

That's like saying that 3/4" cherry plywood is the same as solid 3/4" cherry. Because they serve a similar purpose doesn't mean they're equivalent. I guess the difference to me is the fact that the biscuit or plywood is an engineered material. Heck, maybe unless I'm using hide glue (which I don't), I'm not being consistent on some level.

todd

[Todd Fatheree]

"Fine Furniture" for a living for over 20 years, He

To each his own. Maybe my bar for "fine furniture" is set too high.

todd

[Al Reid]

Obviously. Modern construction techniques and materials does not equate to Wal-Mart furniture.

-- Al Reid

[Todd Fatheree]

Well, that's your opinion, of course. And there's a lot of ground between Wal-Mart furniture and "fine-quality" furniture, at least in my mind. For some reason, there's something intrinsically lame about biscuits in my mind when applied to a piece of furniture that I expect to last well beyond my lifetime. And this isn't because I've never used them, because I have. I have a very serviceable Dewalt biscuit jointer that I've used in the past and intend to use in the future on the right projects. I just try to avoid them on something I hope will be an heirloom someday. Oh, well...I'm certainly not in any position to criticize what other people use, so I'll just do my thing and other people will do theirs. Certainly not as important as keeping the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts out of the White House.

todd

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I'll bet you don't use pocket screws either ;)

I don't have a problem using anything that makes the job easier or faster. IMO, non-visible accessories don't detract from the beauty of fine furniture. I admire the guys that do hand cut dovetails. Maybe that is because I can't do them and therefore appreciate the skills of those that can. I've made a few pieces and have been proud of the fact that I did them with no metal fasteners. Where I'd have a dowel exposed, it could have just as easily been done with a screw that was countersunk and plugged, but I chose otherwise. Better? Probably not, just more fun to do.

What is important is that you're enjoying the journey, not just the destination. Keeping traditions alive is a wonderful thing.

I wonder what some of the old masters would do if faced with a modern shop. Ed

[Todd Fatheree]

Sure I do. In fact, I'm about to put some into a footstool I'm making for the little ones so they can stop fighting over the one they have. Then they can go on to fighting about something else.

My deal is that I generally find them unnecessary for the work I've done up to now. Now, if I was trying to churn out production, that would probably be a different story and some sacrafice might have to be made for speed.

todd

[George]

Exactly what they thought was best. Like putting hand-sawn precious wood veneer over a cheap substrate.

As biscuits are not structurally important in a glue-up, they wouldn't take the time to put them in.

[Al Reid]

I'm having a hard time seeing how using biscuits in any way diminishes a "fine furniture" project and causes it not to last beyond your lifetime. I'm certainly not advocating the use of particle board, contact paper and knockdown hardware. I think we are talking about using glue only or glue and biscuits. Oh, well, certainly not that important.

However, I totally and unequivocally agree with your last sentence.

[mac davis]

I think it's a matter of appearances verses skill level... I'd love to have the skill and knowledge to make things like dovetail and finger joints, but IMHO, biscuits make the use of fancy joints more of a trim or appearance thing than a necessary skill to assemble projects.. I love looking at other folks galleries and seeing the contrasting color joints and inlays, but I doubt that I'll ever develop the skill or patience required for those... I guess they're what I consider "fine" woodworking, a level I'll probably never reach..YMMV

Mac

[mac davis]

I would have to say that woodworking is an art, not a science.... and how you approach your at is a very individual thing, which I think that it needs to be to be creative...

I have a friend that does very good work, who refuses to call anything that isn't finished with hand rubbed oil furniture... he isn't wrong or right, just doing his thing..

I bought a biscuit jointer because even with a drill press and dowel points, my joints always need a bit of alignment and sanding... the biscuit seems to minimize the problem for me, so I use it...

that's why they make paint in all those different colors, so everyone can have one they like.. *g*

Mac

[Andy Dingley]

hardware.

I'd use knockdown hardware on fine furniture. There's nothing about "fine" that implies traditional and excludes contemporary. Portability isn't contradictory to quality.

Besides which, some of the finest furniture ever built (18th century secretaries and chest-on-chests) used metal knock-down fittings to split in two for shipping and installation.

[Phil Hansen]

Came into this a bit late. Lots of good advice / opinions. I use a T&G bit in a router table. Provided all boards are the exact same thickness it works well. Much better than the results I got from biscuits and butt joints.

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:14:53 -0500, "Todd Fatheree" calmly ranted:

A lot of ground and an entire ocean.

Let's keep the distinguished(?) gentleman from Texas out of the White House for another 4 years, shall we? Vote with your conscience.

-------------------------------------------------------- Murphy was an Optimist ----------------------------

Comprehensive Website Development

[Robert Galloway]

I handcut all the dovetails for the drawers of a desk. Not half bad if I do say so myself. I agree with those who assert that that you can't see (and isn't a shortcut that will shorten the live/durability of the piece) has a place in the modern construction of "fine furniture" IMHO.

bob g.

Edw>>biscuits? To me, having biscuits in a piece of "fine furniture" is like

[Prometheus]

I made a little cedar tabletop last week, and glued 3 6" planks at one time by using dowels to keep them aligned. No doubt this would work for any number of planks, as long as your joints are square and you don't clamp the piece too hard.

[Prometheus]

Ten to one says most of them would break out in a big old grin, and latch onto anything and everything that works well and makes the job easier. Because something is "tradtional" does not always mean that it is better. Quality is Quality, regardless of the method used to produce it, and I just can't believe that a well-jointed, solidly built piece of furniture with a fine finish and attention to detail made with some manufactured materials and power tools could be considered somehow inferior to an equivilent piece of work crafted in a more tradtional fashion. After all, I doubt those old masters turned up their noses at chisels because back in the mists of time, people had to use broken bits of rock to make things.

Sure, there's plenty of fun to be had sticking to nostalgic ways of doing things, but there's nothing wrong with using what you've got!