Floor fix question

[russellseaton1]

The old toilet is not like the ones shown in your link. I will have to look at the toilet again, its outside on the grass, to see if it looks normal. I assume it is a regular toilet. Waste out on the bottom that sits over a regular 4" drain pipe and flange with a wax ring. Normal. I will measure the pipe when I get back over there. Pretty sure its 4", but I will measure.

I will try to take a picture of the waste pipe in the floor and figure out how to post it. Hopefully. I have not removed the rubber cone. That is generally not something you happily run your hands over. But I will probably have to monkey with it. The drain pipe is plastic. But no flange was attached and then cut off. No.

The house is from the 1970s. It is one of those build in a factory houses. Where they build the two halves and truck them to the site and then lift them onto the basement foundation with a crane and then bolt the two halves together. And finish the very top of the roof ridge with shingles. So when it was built the bathrooms were finished except maybe the toilets and maybe sinks were not installed or hooked up. And then a plumber came in after the house was set on the foundation and did all the final water and drain pipe running in the basement. And maybe electrical connections too. The basement joists are covered on both sides with plywood. And the finish plumber cut out chunks of the plywood to run the pipes up to the bathrooms where they needed to be. The water pipes to the bathroom sinks and toilet are straight up through the floor. Not into the walls and then the pipe/valves out of the wall. A hole for the water pipe, and the toilet drain, straight up through the floor. So maybe it was easier and quicker to just drill a circle for the toilet drain pipe. Put the pipe up through the floor, put a rubber cone on it. Then screw a separate flange to the subfloor. Call it done. Put the toilet and wax ring on it. The bathroom sink did have the drain out of the wall. But it was a very big hole in the drywall. So I can imagine when the sink drain was hooked up, the plumber busted a huge hole in the drywall and used a long drill bit to drill down to the basement. Then the guy in the basement used a hole saw to make a big hole for the drain pipe that went up through the base plate of the wall and into the wall cavity.

[DerbyDad03]

You can create a free account at imgur.com, upload/drag and drop images, grab the "direct link" and post it back here. No one here would need to register to see the image.

They have a desktop and smartphone app. Real easy to use. Shallow learning curve.

The main issue with imgur is that there is also a section where users post public images, memes, videos, etc. The posts are then followed by comments. The reason that that is an issue is because it's as bad as (if not worse than) YouTube as far as sucking you in and wasting vast amounts of your time. DAMHIKT

[russellseaton1]

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:09:27 AM UTC-5, [e-mail] wrote:

Lets hope this works. Below are hopefully images from imgur.com. I am not sure which link is which picture. So I will add a description of each picture and count on you matching the description up to the right picture.

Pic 1: Toilet pipe sticking up through floor into bathroom. The rot of the wood does not show up as rotted as it really is. And the picture makes it seem like the hole for the pipe is a good fit. Its not. The rubber cap on top isn't really a cone. Its flat rubber on top of the white plastic pipe funnel. Pic 2: Bigger picture of where the toilet will sit. Tape measure to give a sense of distance. Wood is rotted. Pic 3: Whole bathroom. Or where the toilet will sit and where the new vanity will sit. Shows the waste pipe coming out of the wall and the water pipes coming up through the floor. Bathroom was repainted in the past. Pic 4: Underside of the bathroom from the basement. Looking up into the floor joists. Wood around the pipe going through the floor is rotted all around. Pic 5: Bigger picture from underneath and the basement. The other PVC black pipe going up is into the wall I think and catches the sink drains. Pic 6: Even bigger picture. Showing the drain system under the joists in the basement. The second toilet drain in the other bathroom is at the end of the white plastic pipe. Its not shown in the picture.

From the pictures it looks like I will replace all the subfloor above the drain pipe sticking up through the floor. Side to side in the joist bay and a couple inches in front of the toilet pipe. And back to the drywall. 12" x 18" total I think. And it looks like I have enough room to cut the vertical 4" pipe (white) and put a correct drain flange on top of the subfloor in the bathroom. No separate flange and separate pipe sticking up through the floor. I'll glue in one of the normal flanges where the flange is screwed to the floor and the whole thing is glued to the pipe. As was done in the other bathroom but not this one for some reason.

[russellseaton1]

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 7:51:30 PM UTC-5, [e-mail] wrote:

Forgot to add it, but in the second link, the 7" and 5" written on the floor in black marker is how far from the center of the drain pipe to the joists on each side. Pipe is not perfectly centered in the joist bay. And this joist bay is not exactly 16" on center either. More like 13.5" on center. Not that it makes any difference.

[russellseaton1]

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 7:51:30 PM UTC-5, [e-mail] wrote:

Big thanks to DerbyDad03 for telling me about imgur.com and especially about the "Direct Link" choice. I never would have figured out that was the correct choice of all the options.

[Markem618]

Sound like a good plan.

[DerbyDad03]

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 9:01:50 PM UTC-4, [e-mail] wrote:

Here's another tip that I use with imgur all the time. It may sound complicated but it's really easy.

First, I use Outlook as my PC mail client, so that's what I'll describe. You may have to play with these steps to get it to work with whatever mail client you use.

Windows 10 comes with an app called Snipping Tool. I won't get into that, it's all described here and many other places found with a simple web search.

OK, so let's say I want to copy something from a website, or a portion of picture, or anything and post it as an image link, using imgur.

1 - Use the Snipping Tool to snip the part you want to use. 2 - In the Snipping Tool window that opens after you do the snip, choose: File...Send to...Email Recipient (as attachment) 3 - Outlook will open a new email with the snip as a jpg attachment. 4 - Open imgur and go the page where you add your own images. 5 - Back in the email that the Snipping Tool created, grab the attachment and drag it into the imgur window.

When you drop it, it will automatically be added to your images and you can then create the "direct link".

6 - Close the email (the Snipping Tool is disabled until you close the email)

Now, if you really want to get fancy, use PowerPoint, Paint, etc. to edit the snip before using the process above.

To create the image at the link below

1 - I snipped a portion of one your images and pasted it into PowerPoint (the Snipping Tool puts its on your clipboard for you) 2 - I then added text and shapes to the image in PowerPoint. 3 - I then used the Snipping Tool on the *edited image* and followed the steps above to create the link.

You'll note that at no point did I save the PowerPoint. I just used the app for editing and then "snipped the snip" and uploaded the new snip to imgur via the email drag and drop process.

[russellseaton1]

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 11:04:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Thanks for the further instruction on using the imgur.com. I already use and LOVE the snipping tool. But I just save pictures to my desktop. Such as when going to YouTube and seeing several videos I want to watch. So I save a picture of the page and click on one to watch and then use the saved snip to look up the subsequent ones.

Regarding your above link of my plumbing. Yes, I noticed that joint mess on the horizontal drain pipe. I will look at it much closer the next time I am over there.

[DerbyDad03]

On Saturday, September 17, 2022 at 8:55:43 PM UTC-4, [e-mail] wrote:

When you said "rubber cone" I was thinking that it could be a Fernco Wax Free Toilet Seal. It's obviously not that since we can see the top of the PVC pipe. It could still be a Fernco of some type.

If you are not familiar with Fernco couplings, you should look into them. They are great for plumbing jobs where gluing might be difficult or things don't line up perfectly or you might need to take them apart to clear hair, etc. on a regular basis. (like when there 3 women with long hair living under then same roof. Trust me on that one.)

Since there is no pressure in a drain pipe, they work great and AFAIK they are code compliant in all residential drain systems.

[Scott Lurndal]

I'd cut the waste pipe downstream of the elbow, replace the section of floor, and reinstall a new integral closet flange[*], a length of straight pipe, new elbow and a coupling to the original waste pipe.

[*] Oatey 43587 or similar.

[DerbyDad03]

What elbow? The one over by the wall? Why would you go back that far?

What about Sanitary Tee with the crappy caulk job? I'd cut the pipe on both sides of the Sanitary Tee and replace that along with the pipe to the toilet.

That whole section could be connected to the existing drains pipes with 2 Fernco 1056-44 couplers.

Am I missing something?

[russellseaton1]

I think Scott Lurndal and DerbyDad03 are both saying the same thing. Replace the 3 way connection on the main pipe, the pipe going up to the bathroom, and the new toilet flange on top in the bathroom. And put in new subfloor too. When I get back over there and look at everything I will figure out what to do.

I am aware of the comments about the 3 way connection not looking like its glued right. It does appear to have caulk put on the seam to stop leaking. I will look at that. I do not think there has been any leaking at that joint though. So.........no need to replace it if no leaks? Even though it looks bad? I will definitely look at it. And hopefully make the right choice.

I have access to everything in the basement. Its all below the joists. Just the toilet pipe going up is in the joists. Horizontal pipe is below the joists so easy to get to. At the end by the wall where the 90 degree is, I think there is a few inches of play so maybe when putting new parts in, I could use the glue in connectors. Not the rubber connectors from Fernco. See link below. I would need to move the pipe back a couple inches to get the new connectors into the line. To accommodate the overlap that is glued.

With the above coupling, I believe there are some that have a stop in the middle. And some that do not have a stop in the middle. So you could slide the whole thing over one side of the pipe, put glue on the area, and then slide the whole coupler back over. Not positive about this. Not sure how that would work or not. No offense against Fernco the rubber connector company. But it seems to me to glue the pipes all together is better.

[DerbyDad03]

We may *mean* the same thing, but we aren't *saying* the same thing. Since we are trying to help you out in an area that you may not be knowledgeable, we should use the correct terms to avoid confusion, especially since you need to buy parts.

The 3-way connection that you are referring is called a sanitary tee. If you went to the store and asked for an elbow, you would not be shown a sanitary tee.

BTW a sanitary tee is different from a tee, in that the "tee" portion of a sanitary tee is curved to facilitate the movement of waste material. It directs the waste in a downstream direction, instead of dumping it straight down into the horizontal pipe where it could cause an obstruction.

If it were me, I would replace it. The amount of extra work is minimal. (See below for an option)

You are referring to a stop coupling vs a no stop coupling. A no stop coupling is often referred to as a repair coupling, although the term repair coupling is also used for couplings that are adjustable in length. You don't need one of these. ;-)

Personally, for your situation, I'd use Fernco couplings. Yes, a no stop coupling should do the job, but it seems like a lot more work and mess. You've got to put glue on both sections of pipe and then slide the coupling over the glue, pushing the glue out of the way while making sure you get the fitting in place fast enough so the glue doesn't set. I don't mean to sound like that tangled garden hose infomercial. ;-) Just seems to me that the code compliant Fernco couplings are so much easier and essentially foolproof.

I've used no stop couplings when sweating copper because the solder is applied once the fitting is in place, something you can't do with glue.

If you have room to move that pipe over by the wall enough to get stop couplings in place, that might be the better option. Glue away. ;-)

Just FYI...Fernco also makes 4" sanitary tee's (QT-400, I believe) and Oatey makes a compression fit flange that fits inside 4" PVC pipe. (43539). Toss in 2 of the 1546-44 4" couplers and you could do the whole job without any glue. Cutting the pipe sections to length would be only "hard" work. The rest is just tightening some screws. (and paying for it)

Sanitary Tee

Flange

Couplings

[Scott Lurndal]

That was my bad. The one photo that I looked at showed only part of the 'elbow' transitioning the vertical run from the closet into a horizontal run. It could easily have been part of a tee rather than an LB. Replace it.

I was a bit surprised that the waste stack was PVC instead of ABS.

[russellseaton1]

The plumbing waste pipes have both PVC and ABS mixed together. One of the water drains, and maybe vents, is ABS. The two toilet waste pipes are PVC. And PVC for the long horizontal runs. I do not know plumbing code. But mixing them up does not seem to cause any harm. I will try to post one more picture showing all of the plumbing. The two toilet drains are PVC, and the one sink water drains is ABS. What I can see from the basement.

[russellseaton1]

OK. Maybe some words were mixed up somewhere. I'm not too concerned about that. I do know what parts are under question and need replacing. And I do know what they look like so when I go to Menards to get them, or go to Amazon, I can see if they are right or not. I know the 90 degree elbow at the end of the horizontal waste run is OK. No need to replace it. And the sanitary Tee does direct the water in the outgoing direction. Very important for a toilet. In another house I have a T that is just a regular T. Not directional. So when the washing machine water gets to that T, it kind of gets messed up. But there is no real problem with it. Its just not as right as it should be.

My comment about the no stop coupling was just in case somehow I did not have enough slack in the pipes to move them back and forth to get stop couplings in place. But I think I have enough slack to move things. So no need to use a no stop coupling. Yes I know doing a no stop coupling with PVC glue everywhere is not ideal at all. Kind of a last resort after you have jumped off the Grand Canyon rim and you might as well flap your arms on the way down.

Man oh man. You are making this too easy. With the Fernco sanitary tee, I might be able to cut out the current sanitary tee with the caulk around the seams and put the Fernco tee in. Easy peasy. And for the toilet flange and drain, I would do the simple task of buying a PVC flange and gluing it to a short piece of 4" PVC pipe. Drop it down the hole I cut in the subfloor patch and then just shove it into the Fernco tee. All the plumbing work would be done in 15 minutes. That just does not seem right??????????

I am thinking if I go with a glue in sanitary tee, I will also have to use some short 4" PVC pipes and some of the glue in couplers. Stop couplers. And glue in the vertical toilet stack with the flange on it. So a lot more gluing and pieces involved. And cutting the pipe square to the right length. I have troubles cutting round pipes square if I cannot use my Ridgid tube cutter.

The Fernco sanitary tee says it is 5x10x13.3 inches. I wonder if that is the exact same size as regular PVC sanitary tee? Does the Fernco take into account the glue in flange part of the sanitary tee? Can you simply cut out the PVC bad sanitary tee and then the Fernco sanitary tee will fit perfectly into place and the extra rubber flanges will cover the existing 4" PVC drain pipe where you tighten the band clamps? Is it a perfect fit if you perfectly cut out the PVC tee?

I will measure a replacement sanitary tee at Menards and the one in the house. And see how it sizes up with the measurements given for the Fernco sanitary tee.

For PVC gluing, these are the parts I need.

?tid=-5156148938299798422&ipos=53 For the Fernco sanitary tee option.

[Markem618]

If you do glue, set it up dry, mark across the joints with a marker so you can line them back up. Marking would the flange on the floor so the toilet is not skewed. You can turn them about an 1/8 to a 1/4 turn usually.

I think I would go with Fernco route though, easier to line it up nice. Quick and easy with existing plumbing is nice.

Nice thoughts DerbyDad.

[russellseaton1]

Thanks for the advice to do it dry and put marks on the pieces first. I knew it would be critical to make sure the sanitary tee was straight up and down and directly under the hole in the subfloor. But thought I'd just make it work. Doing it dry and putting marks on everything is much smarter.

For some reason, I don't like the Fernco option. It does not seem permanent. Like glued in PVC pipe. BUT, I will look at a PVC sanitary tee at Menards and figure out if the Fernco sanitary tee comes built so it just slips into the place of a cutout tee. Based on its published length. Fernco extra long so it goes over the pipe ends, no making the pipe longer to use the Fernco. Because a glued in sanitary tee has to have the pipe about 4 inches longer because the ends of the sanitary tee go over the pipe by about 4 inches where its glued. I am definitely considering it. It would make everything real easy. Just glue the PVC flange to a short piece of 4" pipe. Drop it down the hole. Figure out how much needs to be cut off to make it the perfect length. Then screw the band clamps tight.

[Markem618]

The thing with gluing a new sanitary tee is you will have get both ends glued and put it together and in position, not easy if you are experienced. The fernco stuff just use a bit of soapy water and it slides easy and you have a bit of play in line it up.

But then I have a 3 inch copper pipe that drain cleaner ate a hole in and it has been patched with Flex tape for a couple of years now. Got repair pipe and a no stop connecter which does not go over the pipe, just got 80 grit to fit the oscillating sander to widen it out, just can not find that damn roundtuit.

[DerbyDad03]

The thing to be aware of with dry fitting PVC is that fittings do not typically seat fully when dry. You'll get close, but they'll slip in farther once the glue is applied. Sometimes it's as much as a 50% difference per joint.

Measuring the actual depth of the socket is actually the better option, especially if you don't have any slack in the pipes. Don't take my word for it...

Don't take this the wrong way, but when you use phrases like "for some reason" and "it does not seem", it makes me think that you haven't done any research.

A simple Google search for fernco vs. glue (or however you like to phrase your search strings) may convince you that Fernco (or Fernco like fittings) are not just for temporary connections. Look at some of the plumbing forums. Pros use them all the time.

First, I'm not sure why you feel that the Fernco S-Tee has to fit without lengthening the pipes once the caulked S-Tee is cut out. Assuming you get yourself to a point where you trust Fernco couplings, just use a straight coupler to extend the pipes on both sides of the S-Tee

Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like you are almost willing to use a a Fernco S-Tee *only* if fits right in, otherwise you'll use glue. I don't see the logic in that thinking.

re: "Just glue the PVC flange to a short piece of 4" pipe. Drop it down the hole."

I didn't see any mention of the Oatey compression fit flange that I linked to:

By using that flange along with Fernco fittings, you wouldn't have to glue *anything*. If you don't already have glue available, you'd be buying glue and cleaner/primer for one fitting. (admittedly, I have never used (or seen used) that Oatey flange, but I do plan on looking into it a little further for my own edification) They make one style for PVC pipes and one for cast iron.