Educational stupidity

[Glenn Cramond]

In Australia, the NSW Department of School Education plans to ban the following tools from school's industrial arts (shop) workshops:

List of prohibited items:

angle grinder, disc> 100mm automotive pit belt sander (portable powered) >75mm belt chain block/block and tackle combination woodworking machines foundry equipment grinder (fixed), fitted with wire brushes GTA (TIG) welding jointer (planer) nail/stapling machine, staple > 20mm power plane (portable powered) powered sheetmetal machines router, radial arm router, table (fixed) saw, radial arm saw, circular (portable powered) saw, drop and slide spindle moulder

Many of you had your first taste of this wonderful hobby at high school, many went on to enjoy it as a career.

Look at the list above and work out how many of these tools you first used at school and how many are going to be denied to NSW children.

If you're an Aussi, please write to your local school / local member and voice your disgust.

Just think how hard it will be for teachers to teach "building & construction" to year 11 / 12 kids without these tools.

Need determined support please. If you feel stongly about this please email the minister, The Hon. Dr Andrew John REFSHAUGE, [e-mail] and tell him how we will become the laughing stock of the world.

Thanks Glenn

[Noons]

Oh great! Not content with destroying the entire infra-strtucture of the state, they now want to eliminate anyone who is capable of fixing it in future. Way to go...

[Mike Zuchick]

[gandalf]

----------- Well, frankly we didn't have any single tool on your list when I was at school. (some 30-odd years ago) The only power tool in the workshop was a lathe. Everything else was human powered. And that was at least 70% of the purpose of the class. We had to learn about the materials we were working with and the tools to work them with. So personally I think the kids will benefit not suffer. They can always apply the principles and their hard earned knowledge in future and use power tools to speed up the process, but at least they'll appreciate what they are doing and what they are doing it to.

Hardly a laughing stock. You're more likely to become the only folk that actually know what they're doing. But I agree that given that these things exist and they are likely to use them in future they should become familiar with their operation.

I've only recently taken up woodworking as a hobby and I am thankful for what I learned those many years ago. Like most folks I buy all the 'must have' toys and noise generating devices. So far I have just about every hand-held gizmo on the market. I accept that I have learn how to get the best out of some of them but it is somehow just not the same. Power tools are cheapish when compared to manual devices designed for the same job. And, let's admit it, we just like the damn things. But hand-tools are way more satisfying and less likely to wreck your project. That said, I'm still going to use them but I intend to save up and get some really good planes.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

You make some good points, but read the entire list. They are talking about "shop" , not just woodworking. How do you teach welding without a welder? Rub two rods together to make heat? Ed

[gandalf]

--------- Fair point, I did only look from a woodworking point of view. Clearly somethings can only be taught with the appropriate equipment. Woodwork is ancient so a zillion hand-tools exist. Welding is different, I doubt they would give the kids a forge and a smithy. ;-)

[Swingman]

Ah, but "they" did just that. We indeed had a forge, and we also poured aluminum castings. AAMOF, in junior high school (or middle school, as it is now known) metal shop, I made a frying pan that my mother still uses ... that was 47 years ago.

After you complete a project like that as a kid there is a thrilling sense of accomplishment ... and little in your own mind that you can't accomplish.

These educrats, them with the genes we don't need in the pool, are robbing our children of that experience, along with the self reliance that goes with it.

Of course, you couldn't do this today without shooting all the lawyers first.

[Myxylplyk]

These decisions are more often driven by insurance costs than by any curriculum choice or demand. The liability insurance usually makes up a multiple of the entire cost to present the coursework.

It's sad, but this is a result of people looking for a payday through lawsuits. Insurance costs regarding this equipment are extreme. If some of you, tradesmen, find this same type of action in your communities, look for the nearest vocational school in your district. Then volunteer to speak or teach as allowed. It's this type of action and a community willing to pay more in school tax to cover the costs that establish or keep these "shop" programs in schools. No real action on your part, nullifies your contrary opinion.

Just my two cents, you may need change, Myx

[gandalf]

------------ Impressive. I'm in 'The Land of the Great White Queen' we never got to play with anything like that, in my school anyway.

That sort of sums up my point. With human driven hand tools and rough wood (all hardwoods incidentally when I was at school) you can struggle so much to achieve so much more that it does jack up your self esteem.

------------- Agreed

------------ I sometimes think we should just shoot those turkeys for the hell of it.

[David Hall]

I assume that you folks did not go to Vocational-Technical School. It seems a little difficult to really teach carpentry using only hand tools. Finish carpentry and cabinetry (as a job, not a hobby) would be a little tough that way too. Most such schools still teach welding (try that without a welding torch) and other trades that require power tool usage (if you want a job afterwards). Hey, teaching handtools is good and should be part of the curriculum, but nobody is really looking for that entry level carpenter who can use a plane just great, but has never used a Skil saw or that metal-worker who can melt a little bronze, but can't arc-weld.

Dave Hall

[gandalf]

--------------- We have heaps of such training places. I just went into electronics and then software development.

Woodworking is a hobby, not a job. For those opting for the trades there was further education and no doubt an introduction to the equipment they were likely to use.

I would starve as a carpenter, I do OK with my software business. But I like woodwork, right back from being a kid. I just never had the time for it before (too busy sailing). Now I have and I'm in a country that is too cold to sail.

[Steve Wolfe]

Yep, I got my first taste of metal and woodworking in junior high school. About two months after I started, I got my first taste of shop accidents, when a young fool in my class managed to slice through all of the tendons in *BOTH* of his hands. A few months later, another young fool managed to nearly remove both of his thumbs with a band saw.

Then, in high school, I took an advanced woodworking class, that took up two class periods each day. While there were plenty of careless screw-offs in the class, there wasn't a single injury, despite the fact that we had much more hands-on time, with much more dangerous machinery.

After some thought, I've realized why there was such a difference: The teacher. In junior high, all students had to take those introductory shop classes, and the teachers were just herding them through like they would in any other class. In high school, where the class was an elective, the teacher took it VERY seriously. Before we could use ANY machine, we first had to stand around and watch the instructor demonstrate. He would not only show us how to use it correctly, he'd show us subtle "gotchas", and also (in a controlled fashion) demonstrate the consequences of NOT using the machine correctly. Then, were required to read a fair amount on the machine's proper use, maintenance, and safety. Then we had to pass a written exam on proper use and safety. Then we had to pass an "in person" exam where we demonstrated to the instructor that we were capable of using the machine without causing ourself, or anyone else.

By the time you did all of that for each machine you needed to use, it was a fair amount of time and effort invested, and it was, in my belief, the greatest investment that great instructor, Dale Sandusky, could have ever instilled in us. I suppose that taking all of the machinery out of a shop is one way to prevent kids from severely injuring themselves, but it's certainly not the ONLY way.

steve

[SlipJig]

Similar story in my high school metal shop class - except that our teacher 'Cal' would often be cleaning a hand gun. We could tell from his tone and the glint in his eyes what he was saying had to be understood and complied with. He did teach us a lot, and as bizzare as many our projects were, (ranging from a canon to a cap for a pickup truck, he worked with us to get it done right.

[clutch]

Darn if you don't have my sympathies. I have a feeling that you are dealing with the idiocy of metropolitan population groups vs people that live in the rural areas.

They took your guns, now they want to take your tools. Something is very wrong. We are responsible for our actions, leave us be.

Wes

[Groggy]

No, they didn't *take* our guns, some people did hand them in willingly though. As for the tools, they can prise them loose from my cold, clammy fingers ......