Does this need screws?

Pictorial:

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It's a shelf/cubbyhole unit, intended to hang from the wall. It's six feet long and a little over 11" deep. The material is red oak. All the joints are dadoed or rabbeted (1/4" deep) and glued, as can be seen here:

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And there's the rub.

I'm still just a weekend hobbyist and I had not considered that the joints would involve end grain when I designed the piece. I only thought about it as I was applying the glue. :(

The unit consists of about 18 feet of solid red oak 1x12. One of those online calculators tells me that's about 30 pounds, unloaded. There won't be books in (and on) these shelves, mostly percussion instruments including some hand drums. Still, I can imagine it weighing 60-80 lbs. in use.

The top of the unit will be about six feet off the ground. I figure that means that only people over 6'3" will ever see it. Even the bottom will be largely obscured by speakers and a pair of computer monitors. So it wouldn't be a disaster to add a couple of screws to each joint, maybe those flat power-head socket type.

Any advice about whether or not I need screws, and if so where I can get some that are reasonably decorative?

Reply to
Greg Guarino
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Nope, glue is stronger than nails in this case, you should be fine. How you hang it is another issue. You definetly want to hit studs.

Reply to
woodchucker

Just to be sure I've been clear, every joint in this project is end-grain to long-grain. It may be easier to see here:

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Are glued end-grain to long-grain joints strong enough? And yes, it will definitely be attached to studs.

Reply to
Greg Guarino

I wouldn't put any significant weight on a end-grain to long-grain joint. However, if they're in a dado or rebate, then you should be ok assuming the dado/rebate is deep enough (e.g. 3/8" deep in 4/4S4S stock), where you'll get long-grain to long-grain.

Reply to
Scott Lurndal

why not add some screws for peace of mind

what downside is there to adding some screws

Reply to
Electric Comet

If you want "belt and suspenders" fasten a cleat to the wall and set the shelf on the cleat. That will handle the back of the shelf unit. Or use shelf btackets screwed to the wall to support the unit. But that's "belt and suspenders" Properly glued, what you have built should be just fine

Reply to
clare

Only esthetic. I'd like to find screws with this style (and color) head:

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But of course in a wood screw. Ive seen something like it at HD, but in nickel or brass, and at $1 per screw. I don't know what to call that style of head.

Reply to
Greg Guarino

About the closest you are likely to find are truss head. Oval head screws can look decent. Me, I'd countersink plain old screws and glue in face grain plugs if I was going to add screws which I wouldn't. However, what I WOULD have done is set the pieces in sliding dovetails; very little harder to make than dados and they will NOT come loose.

Reply to
dadiOH

If you are talking about adding screws to reinforce the joints, NO.

Put it down suspended between a couple boards to hold it up off the floor. Stand on it. did it hold up? ;~)

But if you feel compelled, counter sink them and plug with oak plugs and sand smooth.

Reply to
Leon

I'm confused then. Haven't I read here on this very forum about the perils of end-grain glue joints? When *are* they bad if not in this application?

I don't think I would try that. It might indeed hold, but lets just say that I present a tougher test than most people. :)

With the dadoes, there's only 1/2" of "meat" there.

Reply to
Greg Guarino

I'm skeptical that they are not much harder than dadoes, with my limited skills and gear anyway. I made the dadoes (and rabbets) with a router and this homemade jig:

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Now *that's* easy. I assume I'd make sliding dovetails with a router also? Assuming so, can't there be problems if the boards are even a little cupped? Wouldn't the depth of the groove vary? I don't have a planer; I'm at the mercy of S4S lumber. Dadoes seem more geometrically forgiving.

Reply to
Greg Guarino

So yes your dados are 1/4 on 3/4 stock.. less than the 3/8 that I would do, BuTTTTT perfectly fine. your joints look tight, and should easily hold. The nails would be less strong than your joint... You DONE GOOD ENOUGH.

Reply to
woodchucker

End to end is not good. ;~) But you have a lot of surface area reinforced with a joint that will protect against being knocked loose from a side hit. Cabinet doors are typically put together with end grain to long grain and reinforced with a joint. And you have approximately 1.5 square inches of glued surface area for every inch deep your joint runs. If your cabinet is 8" deep you have 12 square inches of glue surface area for each joint and you have 4 on the top and 4 on bottom all working together. Again if 8" deep, that would be 96 square inches of glue surface.

And if you ad a back that would help lock everything together.

Me too. ;~)

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Not a problem, use a washer head Pocket hole screw. Go just deep enough to hide the screw and cover it with a plug. TEST fit on scraps. And remember, what you have now is probably going to be fine, the screws do not, in this case, need a lot of wood under the head.

Reply to
Leon

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you could just paint the heads or use a brown marker

i think there are even dye markers used by metal workers that come in different colors

Reply to
Electric Comet

Your jig would make the slots. You would need a way to route the board edges for the pins.

No reason S4S wouldn't be fine.

A cupped board would be no more a problem than it is with dados. In both cases, the board needs to be forced into submission when assembling. If the board refuses. making the pins a wee bit narrower takes care of that problem, the glue takes care of the slight slop from narrower pins.

Sliding dovetails are your friends. Embrace them :)

Reply to
dadiOH

That's enough for plugs but if you think not and want to reinforce in a sorta decorative way, use dowels. And strength from dowels is greatly increased of they are inserted at angles. Same for nails and screws.

Reply to
dadiOH

It doesn't look like end to long-grain joints to me. It looks like there are shallow dados, no? I would have made the dados a little deeper (than what I see) but the weight is being held by the dado edges, not the glue. The glue is still holding edge-grain to (dado) edge-grain. Again, I would have made them a little deeper.

BTW, looks nice!

Reply to
krw

Screws into end grain?

Because they're ugly and don't do anything. Pocket screws, maybe, but that ship's sailed.

Reply to
krw

Electric Comet wrote in news:o5jjvu$imk$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

*snip*

A lot of metalworkers just use Sharpies. It works great for things like sharpening plane irons and the like when you want to see where the stone is cutting.

I went with the Magnum size rather than the medium tip, but you don't necessarily have to go that large. I'm just tired of coloring in the edge of the tool.

Puckdropper

Reply to
Puckdropper

I considered dowels. That would certainly be easy. I'm becoming convinced that perhaps none of this is necessary though.

Reply to
Greg Guarino

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