See, thats the thing. There is a reason they are called *thickness* planers. They are indeed real handy for making things consistent thickness. They do not flatten a board.
Indeed. I am curious; if you are so convinced that a planer is for the faces and a jointer is for edges, why do you suppose there are 16"+ jointers?
PK
What a silly question. Why, to joint the edges of VERY thick boards, of course!
I saw some of that at the Borg the other day, quartersawn, but they only had it in widths of 3/4" and 1-1/2".
Just to be fair, they CAN flatten a board, even though that is not their primary purpose. I'm sure you are referring to the fact that if you have an 8/4 board 12" wide with a twist, repeated passes through a planer will give you a thinner and thinner twisted board. (same with cup or bow)
But if I were asked to flatten that board without my hand planes, my
13" planer would be the tool of choice. I would make a carrier (a box beam the width of my planer and length of the workpiece), use wedges (with double-stick tape) to provide support under the high corners and edges of my workpiece, then run it through the planer. The carrier and wedges will hopefully keep the rollers from flattening the piece, thus keeping the planer from doing its job of cutting to uniform thickness. Then once I have a surface planed parallel to my flat box-beam reference surface, I can flip the board and use the planer as it was intended to bring the board to uniform thickness.So I would use a planer to flatten a board by jury-rigging a way to keep it from doing its intended job!
Very true. However, a router can do this as well, but nobody would say it is the "right" tool for the job; just a tool that could get the job done in a pinch. I have also heard that if you set a planer to *really* light passes, it can flatten a fair deal, though to be honest my DeWalt puts quite a bit of pressure on the board before cutting at all; i.e. the rollers seem to be a fair be lower then the head. So I don't know about that one.
PK
I guess I can see that for cupped lumber, or bow in a short, thick piece, where the pressure/feed rollers (they are one and the same on small bench-top planers, aren't they?) don't have the "muscle" to straighten out the warp. But I can't see it at all for twist, since the board will rock freely with the lightest pressure from the rollers.
Same with my Delta. Seems like they would have to be to do their job.
It's possible to use a smaller joiner to flatten a wide board. In a pinch, yes you can emove SAFETY Equipment and plane the right 6-8 inches until flat. Then place on a mdf sled and run through a planer being supported by a
Of course this surfaces (HAHA) often, because there are many who flatten just fine on their planers by using good sense and procedure, but there's also the planer sled. Get yourself a copy of FWW and check it out.
Yep, saw that. It's a good idea, but for most boards 6" and under, i.e. narrow enough to fit on my jointer... the jointer is a _whole_lot_ less work.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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Which is, of course, why you run the board through a thickness planer afterwards.
Neither is a planer a substitute for a jointer.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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If you're
No, it absolutely is not. A planer makes opposite surfaces of a board parallel. It does not make boards flat. For that, you need a jointer. >>
Gentlemen,
I've never understood how a planer can make opposite sides parallel, if it doesn't also make them flat? If one face-joints one side of a board, then runs the opposite surface through a planer, is the planed surface considered flat? Does the board then need to be face jointed on the planed side? When I look at a board that has been planed to thickness, it looks flat to me. How flat is flat?
I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer. I really want to know.
Curt Blood
The surfaces of two concentric arcs are parallel, are they not?
I suppose it's more accurate to say that a planer makes a board a consistent thickness, that the two faces are a constant distance from each other whether measured side to side or end to end.
Of course. But suppose you have a board with a slight bow in it, and you run it through a planer without face-jointing it first. You get a board that is a consistent thickness, smooth, and still bowed.
Same thing applies to twist. If it's twisted going into the planer, it's gonna be twisted coming out.
Unless you use a planer sled with shims, as others have pointed out -- but please note that the purpose of doing so is to allow the planer to perform the work of a jointer. I prefer to joint with the jointer, and plane with the planer. Seems to be easier that way.
NO! If you do that, you no longer have any guarantee that the opposite faces are parallel, i.e. no guarantee that the board is a consistent thickness side to side OR end to end.
If it was jointed first, by whatever method you choose, it *is* flat.
For some folks, S4S lumber from the Borg is flat enough. It just depends on how picky you are.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
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A jointer is typically used, by those who know what they are for, to, first, flatten a reference face on the stock so that you can then put that face against the fence and get a jointed edge at a true ninety degrees to that face. From there the table saw and planer will establish the other faces by referencing off the jointed face and edge.
While, with smaller not to badly warped stock, it is not impossible to successfully get a flat face on a piece of stock with a planer it does take some dicking around and jigs to do it. A planer however will not, can not , give you a trued edge.
If I had to do without one or t'oer I'd go without the planer. Any fool can establish a true board with a hand plane, resawing on a band saw or table saw or, god forbid, a belt sander, once one face and edge is true.
Considering the weight and mass of a 12" plank it would be virtually impossible to "joint" such a board unless one had and industrial sized planer and was willing to do the dicking around necessary. I'd have to assume anyone with such a planer would also have and recognize the value of an equally competent jointer.
Wow, I'm surprised and really very pleased that my original post generated so much traffic. Let me clarify my situation somewhat. I realize that a new 12" jointer will run me at least $2k, and that it will require help to place, move, and power. I'm not independently wealthy, but I do believe in saving up and buying the tool that will do what I want and last me for a good long time.
I do have a good 13" planer (Christmas present), and I've been very impressed with the way that it produces a finished plank from a flat, rough-sawn piece of lumber. But I'd like to be able to remove the cup that so often shows up in wider lumber, and the planer doesn't do much of that. You can, I've read, stick some shims against the concave side of the board before sending it through the planer, but the planer has enough work to do just feeding and cutting a wide piece of hardwood.
I do build a lot of shelves and I'd like to start selling them, since quite a few folks have asked me to make them for them, and books are a big industry here in Charlottesville. I use a PC plate joiner and some clamps that I made myself (from 2x4's and threaded rod-they work great) to put them all together, but I'd like to avoid having to join two narrow pieces for the sides because 1. it's a bit of a pain, and 2. it doesn't look as nice even with two halves of the same original board, thanks to the kerf.
If I can remove the cup from a wide board with an 8" jointer (and it sounds to me like I can) then obviously I'd rather save the extra thousand dollars for lumber, electricity, and food. 8^)
Oh and, though I'm not trolling, I AM making a 7' by 30" bookcase out of walnut at present. I can get it from the local mill for $4-6 per b.f., which isn't too bad when I can find enough flat stock. Lowe's wants almost $4.50/bf for clear pine, so it's not all that much to pay for such gorgeous wood. I'm going to make the normally unseen back halves of some of the shelves out of a cheaper wood and join them with biscuits. Thanks very much for all the info; I'm going to read it all carefully.
A "good 13" planer" should have bed rollers and a serrated steel infeed roller? If so, piece of cake to get the cup out, as the planer will feed a board with almost zero infeed pressure after adjustment. If you sight the board and do even some crude work with a hand plane you can get a _lot_ of twist out easily, plus local lumps around knots and such. Of course, those would take some effort even on a jointer. Can't slavishly slap the board down and hope for flat and thick, pays to be crafty and take off only the high stuff first.
Neat thing about a 30" bookcase is that you can make a sled for a 30" board and do 'em all, if you care to. You are crosscutting a bit long prior to surfacing?
I have a grizzly 12 inch jointer and the only way I can "justify" it is by sawing my own lumber. If you use a buncha rough stock, then a bigger jointer is better, you must have a dust system and 220 to run a jointer this big. All the other problems with glue up, cup, etc can be worked around well with a good 8 or 6 inch jointer. Its just a question of what you want.
imho Schroeder
No such luck -- it's a DeWalt 735. It works well for me because I'm patient and don't work with huge quantities of wood at once. I've got the feed tables (not really optional accesories, IMHO) and some roller stands, and so far I haven't had any problem with snipe at all, even on ~12.5 x 100 x 1.1 walnut. I don't think that I can adjust it they way you can a good shop planer, though, in order to remove cup.
Your point about the hand plane is a good one. I'm always amazed by how much it can do, but I've never tried using for getting rid of cup. Maybe I'll try it on some cupped pine and see what happens. Thanks!
I haven't crosscut my walnut at all because I want to see which pieces look best after planing, so that I can use those for the sides. I figured I'd start by just getting the biggest rectangles I can out of each board before doing anything else.
Seems you're only considering one of the functions of a jointer and the less common one at that.
Primarily, jointers are used to edge-joint edges of surfaced-two-sides (S2S) lumber. This operation is typically in preparation for edge-gluing two or more pieces together to make a wider surface. In this function, a longer bed is better as you'll be able to remove the cup from longer boards.
For the function of face-jointing (the one you described) wider is better, but a 6 or 8 inch wide jointer can handle 12 or 16 inch wide boards. Also, unless you're starting with fallen trees, most stock is typically in the 6"-8" range.
~Mark.
here is where hand tools really come in. with a scrub plane you can quickly get enough of the sup/twist/bow out of the board to run it through the planer. a scrub plane will cost you $20 on ebay and an hour or two of cleaning and sharpening. and it'll fit in a shoe box.
you really should look into designs using hardwood veneered plywood and solid edge banding and face frames.
Not for cup, for twist, where you knock down opposite corners, and intrusion where you've got a lump close to a knot. Quite a bit of effort for cup, especially as you can work the side opposite of the crown, two high edges, on the jointer one at a time.
My advice - use your mark one mod zero eyeballs , and maybe a wipe with mineral spirits to estimate "best looking" boards, and get them closer to manageable size before milling.
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