I know its not a domino, Leon, but given what I need it for it seems like a possible alternative. It gets so-so reviews and I'm wondering if the alignment issues aren't operator issues and not the tool. Also, Freud doesn't show it on their website, so assume they discontinued it. Thoughts?
or
-------------------------------------------------- Purely personal opinion.
Freud makes some great cutting tools and IMHO, they should stay there and not venture into other pastures.
Lew
On Tue, 21 May 2013 00:19:21 -0500, "ChairMan"
Much as the weight that Leon's opinion does carry, it would be pretty difficult for him to give a decent opinion on the Freud FDW710K Doweling Jointer if he hasn't tried the tool out.
To me, the greatest lack of capability that this particular tool carries, is the fact that you can't cut a slightly wider mortise with it (as you can with a Domino) and adjust the sideways fit when you're gluing up your project. In other words, with this doweling jointer, you have to be absolutely correct with placement or it's going to be screwed up.
To me, anyway, I think that's a glaring lack of capability. I'd suggest you will get a more informed opinion from some users who actually have used the tool.
I saw that shortly after the Domino was introduced. It drills 2 dowel holes. You can probably do that with a doweling jig and a drill.
If there are complaints about alignment problems I would suspect the tool in this case. Freud has never been know for offering much more than entry level power tools.
If you see a specific need it might be worth a try providing you have the opportunity to return it should it not live up to your expectations.
Something to consider, If you were to have row of holes say 8~10 your mating pair of holes would have to be precisely aligned. Looks like the machine places two holes 32mm apart. Not sure if it would index off of a previous pair of holes like the Domino does and it probably has no provision to allow for "non perfectly aligned holds" like the Domino does.
Insuring dowel alignment without clamping it in place seems iffy. As there is little to no wiggle room with dowels compared to say biscuits, nor the ability to widen the holes like with loose tenons, it looks like a frustration machine... ;~)
Interesting. So you want an expensive, precise boring tool that still allows you to be sloppy in your assembly? I thought that was one of the most coveted features of the Domino-- the ability to cut mortises that lined up precisely with one another.
Here it is again? What am I missing, here? You buy a super expensive, incredibly precise machining tool so it can produce sloppy results?
I thought one of the main reasons people use tenons or dowels was for alignment? Are you saying that even the Festool doesn't get the alignment perfect? Or is there some aspect is M&T joinery technique that makes it beneficial to have a sloppy joint? I haven't done a gazillion loose tenon joints like you, so I honestly want an explanation for this.
On Tue, 21 May 2013 10:30:11 -0500, -MIKE-
No, you've got it wrong. The domino is purposely capable of cutting three widths of mortises. One that is exact, one that is a little wider than the domino and one that is wider still. The wider slots permit that attaching surfaces to be off and yet still be aligned in proper position before being clamped in place for the glue to dry.
On Tue, 21 May 2013 10:37:04 -0500, -MIKE-
No, we're saying that you don't understand the type of joinery that can be done with the domino.
The mortises are cut perfectly on the vertical plane, but can be, if desired, cut wider on the horizontal plane. The wider (if desired) horizontal mortises permit some sideways adjustment, yet still enable wider flat surfaces to fit flush and be properly glued.
Think of it as being similar to a biscuit that can slide in one direction, but doesn't slide or move in the perpendicular vertical direction.
Mike, all the biscuit joiners I've seen cut a slot a little wider than the nominal biscuit size. The ability of the Domino to cut "exact" slots may be the odd feature :-).
But regardless of the jig or joiner, all dowel holes have to be exact by the nature of the beast. So you're right about those who want sloppy fits from a doweling tool.
Excellent. Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
The last set of bookcases I built were in two sections. I used dowels to align them during final assembly and they worked like a charm.
After getting a good explanation for the "sloppiness" of the Domino, I can see that they, too, would've provided the necessary "exact" alignment for my assembly on the desired plane. I can also see how the "sloppy" feature may have made my assembly a bit easier on the opposite plane.
Seriously, in the real world perfect alignment with a hand held machine is a tall order. The Domini does insure great height/depth alignment but it being a hand held machine and cutting mating mortises in two steps does introduce the possibility of misalignment from one to the next and that telegraphs error with the first misaligned mortise. The Domino answer to that problem is the ability to widen the mating holes while not affecting up and down alignment. The Domino tenons fit so precisely in the standard slot that perfect alignment of all mating mortises would have to be absolutely certain. FWIW the 5mm tenons have to be driven in with a hammer, If you missed that perfect alignment because of debris in a previous mortise you would not be able to mate the parts especially if you used multiple Dominoes.
If the Freud drilled oval holes to remedy human alignmant error the contact point of the dowels to wood would be almost non existent. The holes would have to be an exact fit and "PRECISELY" placed for proper mating fit of the dowel in the hole. That is not likely to happen given the holes of mating pieces are drilled in two separate operations.
With the Domino, even with a Domino tenon fitting into one of the wider mortises you still have the entire top/bottom face of the tenon making contact with the mortise.
There you go!
I will add that while the Domino has alignment indexing pins that on paper could provide precise alignment, IMHO the pins are more of an indexing starting point. I generally use the exact fit mortise on the piece that is cut into end grain as that typically is the narrower piece with less leeway for a wider mortise. On the mating piece, typically on the edge of a board I use the wider mortise. I lay out the mortises much like you would do with a plate joiner/ biscuit cutter.
For a single mortise and Domino tenon the indexing pins are fine. Once you start adding 4~10 mortises down the edge of a board a precise fit will be very difficult to achieve with out slight spacing error adding up. This is where the wider hole allows the mating piece to wiggle to exactly where you want it. Even then you need a hammer to tap the precise positioning of the mating pieces as the Domino tenons are a pretty tight friction fit with out glue.
On Tue, 21 May 2013 12:09:51 -0500, Leon
That explanation also explains the initial popularity of the biscuit joiner ~ the fact that on a horizontal plane at least, mortises didn't need to be exact.
Now, the domino has added a new factor to fast and easy done loose tenons. Even though I've got a Domino, I still occasionally retch at the price of Festool products when they *could* sell them a little cheaper and still make a significant amount of money. Guess they're of the opinion that price makes them a better quality tool ~ something I don't always agree with.
Yes in theory, but I had a PC 556 and 557 type 1 biscuit joiner and I could not rely on either one to consistently provide mating surfaces that mated with a single plane. That was probably more the fault in the wildly inconsistent thicknesses of the biscuits themselves. This is totally not an issue with the Domino and the Domino tenons.
I suspect that if Festool dropped the Domino $200 that there would still be a boat load of people that would think that was highway robbery and for their needs it probably would be if they were being forced to buy that particular brand of tool. Fortunately there are other brands of tools as an alternative. My tools has paid for itself time and again, actually all of my Festool tools have except perhaps for the drill and track saw, the track saw will eventually pay for it self. The drill is simply much more convenient for me with all of it's attachments and strangely enough it has replaced my Makita impact driver, I don't think I have used the impact driver since December 2011.
As far as quality goes I have only worn out a power cord, my tools still seem to operate like they did when new, except for the consumable parts like sand paper and the sanding pads on my finish sander and Rotex sander. The Domino has probably cut in excess of 8,000 mortises and it still operates like new. So while the quality might be hard to distinguished from a popular brand tool at half the price, will that other tool still be like new 6 years later like my Domino and CT22 dust extractor?
Prior to switching my sanders to Festool brand, I used for many years a PC right angle ROS and a PC Speedbloc. I wore one Speedbloc out after
13 years and replaced it with the same. I still don't believe that sander has any competition when it comes to actually getting the work done, it would raise a cloud of dust almost instantly, same goes for the PC right angle ROS. BUT with the dust extractor the finish sander I no longer need to get rid of dust before applying a finish and or before I go inside to eat dinner. The work environment remains clean. The Rotex sander handles the dust in much the same manner but can compete with a belt sander when switched into it's aggressive mode. So these sanders save time in more way than one.FWIW Festool does not sell their tools to the end user, rather they dictate the selling price by the retailer, This affords the dealer the ability to make a decent enough profit to warrant stocking the merchandise. I highly suspect that the dealers have a higher profit margin on Festool products than it does on competitive brands. So while we don't know what the actually profit is for Festool, I can assure you that the dealers are benefiting from the pricing structure also. Festool is not making all of the profit.
The big advantage to all is that you know that regardless of where you buy your Festool product you will be getting the best price and the dealer can feel confident that if he did a good job selling you on the benefits of the tool you are likely to buy from him. Basically there is no advantage to you using your dealer to show you the product and you buying from an on line company.
Now while some call this price fixing, you have other choices with other brands. If a competitor comes up with a similar product of similar quality Festool always has the option of lowering the price or throwing in extra benefits like a 3 year warranty, a custom carrying case, accessories that would be optional with other brands.... Oh wait! they already do that. LOL Actually if they sold their tools with out the power cord and case they could drop the price by $100 immediately.
AFWIW you can now spend $500 on a Festool, Fein, or DeWalt vacuum.
My 2 cents:
I tried one of the less expensive solutions -- the Beadlock by Rockler. Th en I got a screaming deal on a used Domino. The difference is night and da y. The Beadlock was a PITA and if I was a half-hair off on setup the tenon s wouldn't seat in perfect alignment. It would take 10 minutes for one joi nt as compared to less than a minute with the Domino.
Cost, of course, is another story. I'm using my shop vac but had to buy th e Festool hose. $80 IIRC for the hose!!
Larry
Thanks for the replies, I wasn't tryin to start a war about the domino. I normally use a Stanley #59 doweling jig and have used the self centering type, both are usually off a bit. I guess for doweling *perfect* alignment a boring machine is the answer. I just ran across the Freud a month or so a go I thought about it, and didn't bite because of the reviews. I was just wondering if anyone had personal experience with one. The logic of the alignment issues makes sense now that I know the domino allows wigggle room. That usually what I do with the doweling jigs, either wallow it a tad or shave a bit off one side of the dowel Thanks again for the replies
makes sense, thanks
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