Anoline Dye Disaster

For the past what seems like months I have been working on a small cabinet/nightstand for SWMBO. You know how it goes, " To build YOUR cabinet, I'll need those raised panel bits and that dovetail jig and that router and spindle sander,..." LOL

I am a newbie and have been experimenting with several features in this cabinet; raised panel doors, hand cut-dovetail corners and basis scrollwork on the legs/feet. I have been using hard maple and maple plywood for the carcus. For a newbie, I have been quite pleased with my work.

Well before I assemble the cabinet, I decided I should stain the parts. I wanted to match our Pennsylvania House cherry bedroom furniture which is a darkish brown color. Reading all about staining maple to look like cherry here on the rec and the web, I bought aniline dyes; Antique Cherry Red and Deep something Brown. I mixed up the Cherry Red and tested on some scrap. Way too red. So I added just a dash of the brown. Like a chemical reaction, the dye instantly turned a deep dark sh-- brown. I tried it on scrap and decided that it wasn't too far from the bedroom furniture color and decided to use it.

And so, I started slapping the stuff on my project pieces. I used a 4 inch sponge brush to apply it. Well, it has made the biggest mess. Everywhere the brush lapped shows a dark streak. It is impossible to get the color to even out. There are several dark botches where the maple/plywood soaked the dye right up and in other areas the wood hardly took up any dyes. You can hardly see my beautiful hand cut dovetails. There is a white line on each plywood piece where the plys butt against each other. The door panels look like walnut stained yellow pine.

I an so disappointed it this mess. I had a really nice cabinet in the works that I was proud of and now its a shitty brown mess. I have no idea of how to remedy this mess other than paint it white and stick it in my garage.

Gary

Reply to
Gary
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Use a rag and work fast. I just used some antique cherry aniline dye on=20 oak. It looks fabulous. But -- the streaking does show unless you work=20 the whole surface at once -- and fast.

Maple generally takes a dye better -- but....

TEST FIRST.

Too late. We all learn that lesson the same way. (There was a song about =

that: When will we ever learn...?)

Get Bob Flexners book on Understanding Wood Finishing. Look in Amazon=20 and Chapters if you like.

As he points out -- there is a time and a place for a _stain_ this was=20 probably the place. Where you must deal with many absorbency factors in=20 the same project. Either that or treat each piece differently -- a lot=20 of trouble.

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version -- about to be released...
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You can=20

Glue line -- chisel it out first... When the glue is still flexible --=20 but not "sticky".

Welcome to the _real_ world or wood working. Persevere.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

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power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

next time, spray either alcohol or water based dye stain on maple using HVLP equipment. Use many "dry" passes to get blotch-free results. Just slathering it on with a brush is going to give you the piss-poor results you reported here...

another tip: practice any new finishing technique or new-to-you material on plenty of representative scrap material; not just on a couple square inches of scrap.

Dave

Reply to
David

Hate to say this, but Welcome to Maple!! It's a beautiful wood, but experience shows most people have better luck using it in a piece where it can be left in its natural color...very blonde. It's tendency to blotch is second only to cherry, and is just too great for most people.

Now, before I get flamed up one side and down the other, there ARE ways to color maple. One way is to use a toner or glaze. Another is to add color to the actual finish (shellac, lacquer, etc.). For these, you're probably going to need spray equipment.

But in terms of coloring the wood itself, I know of only one decent way, and that is glue-size. It's water-based, so you will not be able to use a water-based dye on top of it. Wet the wood with distilled water, let it dry, sand down the raised grain, repeat twice. Then coat the board in the glue-size, wait for it to dry, then sand **very lightly** to knock down any remaining fuzz. Then use an alcohol or NGR-based dye and work quickly. I've never tried a pigment-based stain, but I think that may work as well.

Personally, I still don't like the looks of the finished product, but it's one way you can make it darker without spray equipment. Glue-size is available from Homestead Finishing Products.

As for repairing your cabinet, you can try wood bleach. There are three different types, and I can't remember which one works best on dyes, so you'll probably have to Google it. This may or may not give you enough color-removal, though.

Good luck!!

Reply to
wood_newbie

Reread my post, wish to make a correction:

In the first paragraph, I refer to "most" people twice. I'm not sure that "most" is the word I should have used...perhaps "many" would have been better.

Certainly there are a lot of pros on this group that can get good results.

YMMV!!

Reply to
wood_newbie

You MAY be able to salvage your cabinet by working the surface with a solvent soaked rag. This should pull out some of the dye and even out the color.

Reply to
marks542004

What he said. If it is a water based analine then use a water soaked rag or sponge and try to "wash out" the problems. If it is an alcohol based analine, then do the same with alcohol. Get it real wet, let it soak for a bit and scrub like hell.

Analine's are not something to start with. They are hard to use and Maple is a bitch.

One idea is to sand the heck out of it. Even though you'll have dark parts in any crevices, you can then go over it with some oil stain (ie Minwax... yes I said it) and with some hard work can end up with a good looking piece that looks like it's been glazed or antiqued.

The white line on the plywood is probably a glue line. You may have to hand color that using a tinted lacquer or a felt tip pen.

Reply to
SonomaProducts.com

Hmmm. I thought he stated that he did test.

I have Flexner's book and immediately pulled it out to quote portions of the text to help the OP. Actually, I did not find anything that the OP did wrong. I'm not sure what you mean by "_Stain_". The OP used analine dye which is a form of stain.

Bob

Reply to
BillyBob

If you used a real aniline dye, you may be able to take some of the solvent on a rag and wipe the pieces to lighten (remove some of) the finish. A true dye will redissolve in the presence of the solvent and can be manipulated. You will probably find you have more control over the application using a rag. A sponge brush puts it on pretty heavy and wet.

Bob

Reply to
BillyBob

Thanks everyone for the great advise and sympathy. I'm going to try lightening the dark spots and darken the light spots; soak and sand. I'm think it might look better after several coats of poly also.

I think I shouldn't have messed with it Sunday. You know how sometimes you just don't feel confident and put it away until later and it goes much better? Usually these times, I either have a accident or screw up whatever I'm working on.

Thanks again, Gary

Reply to
Gary

...

Sounds like a significant part of the problem here was not testing on all separate material components of the project individually to see the differing effect.

I'd also suggest that analine dyes are a particularly unforgiving species and should probably be left for later on in the arsenal of newbies after practicing on multiple less significant pieces before attacking a real prize piece.

Reply to
Duane Bozarth

Yep. it was the real stuff, Homestead Transfast Water Soluable Dye

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had an "Oh Shit" moment! Says on the webpage one ounce makes 2 quarts. I could swear the label said one quart. No wonder its so damn dark.

Gary

Reply to
Gary

Clearly not enough. Been there myself. He did not state whether he=20 tested all types of wood or one type. Not enough info to judge one way=20 or another... He did not even state that it was scrap wood from the same =

furniture piece -- I did that -- _once_. We could guess that's what he=20 meant...

Not nit picking -- spent many years trouble shooting designs and=20 projects -- most people really do not give enough details to do more=20 than guess -- which we are doing.

Nor do we know that he did anything "right". We are both guessing. Your=20 guesses are as good as mine. Hopefully someone will provide enough info=20 to guide the fellow for "next time".

Most people here refer to "stain" when there is particulate suspended=20 matter in the solution etc... The stain generally obscures (muddies) the =

grain. Dye does not have suspended matter -- and hence will not normally =

obscure the grain. Hence some (most? many?) people prefer the dye -- for =

Cherry for example -- misguided souls the lot of them.

I have successfully used Deftoil Danish Oil -- Fruitwood colour -- in=20 these circumstances (on cherry, maple, walnut or oak combinations). It=20 is a "stain" -- but acts more like a die -- according to Flexner. (See=20 Understanding Wood Finishes page 85 -- UR corner -- note on bitumen or=20 gilsonite.) I stumbled on this use by accident when creating pieces from =

multiple woods -- yet I wanted the colour to "tie together". Like most=20 people I checked afterwards and it confirmed why it worked.

See here for Deftoil info...

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think Flexner seems to indicate a _gel_ _stain_ in these circumstances =

where stain absorption is uncertain... but I could be reading his book=20 wrong. Unfortunately if the Cherry Stain Police are active in the=20 neighborhood you are risking a substantial fine. lol

I have actually used walnut coloured, oil based stain on walnut lately=20

-- looked great. It did muddy the grain, but it tie together all the=20 different hues in the wood. Another Flexner tip.

Flexner is right about one thing -- some people give "stain" a bad rap.

Cheers and best wishes.

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

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power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

Empathy. lol

Try a gel stain... Just test first.

Nope -- never happens to me. Must be you. ROTFLMAO

--=20 Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art

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power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those=20 who have not got it.=94 George Bernard Shaw

Reply to
WillR

Fair enough. I agree with you.

Best regards, Bob

Reply to
BillyBob

You failed to mention the flavor of maple and the degree of slick. In my experience, hard maple takes a dye better right off the scraper, and will lighten a touch as you dewhisker it after the first seal coat.

Soft maple has been a bit more cooperative, but it tends to have the odd grin reversal in it which gives dark or light lines. It is, however, a much better visual match for cherry than hard.

Reply to
George

Hi, Several have alluded to this but not very explicitly. Both solid wood and plywood were used on this project. Depending on the how the face veneer of the plywood were manufactured, plywood can respond very differently then solid wood to dyes and stains. If the veneers were sheared off a rotating log, the grain and porousness of the wood is usually quite different than solid wood, and often varies greatly across veneer itself. Most of us are familiar with the stained pine plywood look. Usually not good.

Thanks Roger

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Reply to
Roger Haar

Empathy. lol

True, true.

Reply to
Gary

"Gary" wrote in news:dda9b5$ovd$ snipped-for-privacy@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU:

(Gary relates disaster with analine dye on maple) At least one poster has recomended the use of bleach to lighten or remove the color. Off the top of my head, I couldn't remember the chemistry of analine dyes except that they were one of the first important coal tar derravitives. So I did a google search on "analine". The very first hit I got brought up a similar problem and a warning. Analine compounds contain ammonia. Ammonia and chlorine-containing bleaches combine to produce chloramines, which are very irratating and possibly toxic. TFA can be found at:

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have to admit, when I read the post suggesting bleach, it sounded reasonable...

Reply to
Dan Major

I think I can help here...I was the one who recommended the wood bleach. :-)

Analine dyes are no longer actually analine based...analine was a highly toxic substance and has long since been removed from what we now call analine dyes. The name stuck around though. As I understand them now, they are metallic in nature, some sort of metal salt or something.

I just did a further Google search, and they recommend using the chlorine-based bleach to remove dye-based stains. (Most said it was ineffective on pigment-based, however.)

The transfast is all dye and no pigment, so chlorine is probably the way to go. I agree with the others, though...probably best to first get as much off with the original solvent as possible.

Reply to
wood_newbie

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