Yikes, blown the suppy company neutral fuse ...

snipped-for-privacy@q16g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

Indeed, I said what I said. I did not say what you say I said.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q
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snipped-for-privacy@q21g2000prm.googlegroups.com...

To quote what you said to John Rumm "John who doesn't actually understand, after all anyone can read/cite [1] the regs, not everyone can understand to the point of *questioning* the validity of the current regs"

You have repeatedly misunderstood (or chosen to misunderstand) the validity of a persons choice (not just me) to use Google groups and throwaway e-mail adresses.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

We were discussing my statement:

When Man at B&Q asked:

I seem to recall this particular sub thread had little to do with "regulations" and was more to do with common practice of consumer appliance manufacturers targeting the EU market. You will note that I made no reference to regulation and instead looked at a scientific analysis of the effects of different fuse and flex sizes on adequate fault protection.

Reply to
John Rumm

What is the point in you again raising that miss information, what you (JR) replied to was my comment about appliances supplied with moulded on BS1363 plugs also have flex that reflect the rating of the appliance, thus a table light will come with 3 (or perhaps even 5amp) rated flex and not a 'kettle' lead. Yes I know that such flex can withstand even a 30A overload but only short term (no pun intended), it can't withstand it as a continuous load.

: > : > : : > : Well I figured he could always ask if unsure. ;-) : > : : >

: > What is the point asking those who will not question regulations, : > from were I'm sitting it looks like it's people like you John who : > doesn't actually understand, after all anyone can read/cite [1] : > the regs, not everyone can understand to the point of : > *questioning* the validity of the current regs... : : I seem to recall this particular sub thread had little to do with : "regulations" and was more to do with common practice of consumer : appliance manufacturers targeting the EU market.

No, that is what you might be trying to make it but the fact is the issue is still the that a 3amp appliance can (effectively) be protected by a 30 protective device - yes I know that even on a radial circuit the protection device might 5x higher that it should be [1] but even that is better than being 10x higher!

[1] I would prefer that there be proper 5amp sockets, perhaps with a completely new design of socket/(moulded-on)plug, for low rated appliances such as table lamps, clocks and the like, which can be supplied via the lighting circuit(s). The British standard plug/socket are a bit like Socialism from the same era - "One size fits all".

You will note that I : made no reference to regulation and instead looked at a scientific : analysis of the effects of different fuse and flex sizes on adequate : fault protection. :

Based on your understanding of the regulation, no doubt - if the IEE 18th edition regs stated that 'sky-hook' circuits were their preferred instillation method for UK you would no doubt be basing your scientific analysis on those 'base points', unless you really are suggesting that the IEE should be asking you to compile the 19th edition...

Reply to
Jerry

: > Whilst I'm prepared to accept that you might not : > have meant to say what you did the problem is you : > did say what you said... : : Indeed, I said what I said. I did not say what you say I said.

But what you said actually meant something else, unfortunately you do not have the working brain cells to understand that. Is English your first language, at times I suspect not!

Reply to
Jerry
[ re the use of web access for both email and Usenet access.

: You have repeatedly misunderstood (or chosen to

Not everyone is like you "manatbandq", most people on this group understand exactly the failings of both web-mail and web-Usenet gateways.

: misunderstand) the validity of a persons choice : (not just me) to use Google groups and throwaway : e-mail addresses.

So what is the excuses for using Google groups then, even if there might be a sliver of validity for using Hotmail, unless you are stealing your employers [1] time and resources and thus can't install a newsreader there is not valid reason for being a Google Groupie...

[1] Uni'/college students away from home *might* have to use both web-mail and Google groups
Reply to
Jerry

snipped-for-privacy@q2g2000vbk.googlegroups.com...

I fully understand their failings. That's part of an *informed*

*choice* when other methods are not available.

How does sanctioned use of employer provided hardware and network bandwidth constitute "theft"?

Is using Employer provided toilets also "theft" of the water used to flush? What about when I use teabags provided by my employer, is that "theft" as well?

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

: I fully understand their failings. That's part of an : *informed* *choice*

If you truly 'understood' you would not be touching either with a barge-pole...

: when other methods are not available.

Err, most (if not all) ISPs offer the customers the ability to access their pop/smtp email servers via the web, so quite why anyone would need to use a third-party email service...

You *do* have your own personal, non work-place, ISP don't you "manatbandq"?!

: How does sanctioned use of employer provided hardware : and network bandwidth constitute "theft"?

Then you would have no problem using the installed (often by default) newsreader, the fact that no NNTP software has been installed indicates that said employer doesn't want employees wasting time and resources on Usenet activity.

: Is using Employer provided toilets also "theft" of the water : used to flush? What about when I use teabags provided by : my employer, is that "theft" as well?

One would be classed as H&S equipment, if not compulsory building equipment, now try rationalising your (il)logic should you want to use your employers metered water supply to wash your personal car. As for tea bags etc, you would have express permission to use such employer supplied items (and many employers do not offer such items for free).

Reply to
Jerry

But not all offer IMAP, which is really what's needed these days. And in that case, googlemail, hotmail and the like provide a functional alternative.

I just run my own servers...

Reply to
Bob Eager

You're quick. I'm certainly not using them to register with Google. Hotmail was simply a convenient way to get an e-mail address that I can forget about and not worry about spam.

We've been over this on at least one occasion in the past. I don't intend to say any more.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

: Hotmail was simply a convenient way to get an e-mail : address that I can forget about and not worry about spam.

Err, anyone with a clue use either ISP email accounts (or as Bob says, run their own...) and don't have to worry about spam once set up, so your point is somewhat moot.

Reply to
Jerry

As far as I am aware, I have not raised any "miss information" - perhaps you could highlight it?

Well there we go then we seem to have understanding of the basics. There is no requirement for a table lamp flex to withstand a 30A load for any significant duration, since there are no viable scenarios with a table lamp that could result in such an overload situation. Hence the only case of interest is are fault conditions when much higher currents will be passed for short durations.

How? The largest plug fuse is 13A.

Get with the program Jerry. What you describe has existed for decades and is routinely used for exactly the purpose you describe:

formatting link
are typically used for sockets on lighting circuits to feed table lamps or under cupboard lamps in kitchens etc. Quite handy when you want dimmer controls on plug in table lamps etc but don't want someone knackering your dimmer with a vacuum cleaner.

No, based on my understanding cable heating in response to fault currents in adiabatic circumstances. The only regulatory data I used were the cable K factors (e.g. 115 for PVC insulated cable) for which the wiring regs provide figures for different cable types based on experimental research. I felt no need to repeat the research myself just to post to usenet.

That makes little sense. The wiring regs themselves make no case for the superiority of any particular circuit topology. Only that a designer ought to select one fit for purpose. The also provide a number of "standardised" circuits (both radial and ring), that you can use as baseline designs without needing to do detailed calculations to prove suitability - so long as you conform to the specified limitations and constraints.

Reply to
John Rumm

snipped-for-privacy@c21g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

In the days of dial-up modems, spam filtering wasn't what it is now, and running my own server was not an option.

Fast forward a few years and I see no need to change anything when the hotmail address does what I require of it perfectly well, i.e., dump any replies into oblivion.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

: > What is the point in you again raising that miss information, : : As far as I am aware, I have not raised any "miss information" - perhaps : you could highlight it?

I have, but you then just attempt weasel words, how many table lamps do you know that come fitted with 'kettle' leads? The fact is, sitting on or near my desk are a printer that has a 3amp flex with a moulded on BS1363 plug at one end and a moulded on female

8 connection at the other, the VHS machine has a 3amp flex fitted with a moulded on plug, same with the DVD player, the desk lamp has a 3amp flex with moulded on BS1363 plug just to name a few appliances so fitted and I suspect that the majority of homes will have similar.

: : > what you (JR) replied to was my comment about appliances supplied : > with moulded on BS1363 plugs also have flex that reflect the : > rating of the appliance, thus a table light will come with 3 (or : > perhaps even 5amp) rated flex and not a 'kettle' lead. Yes I know : > that such flex can withstand even a 30A overload but only short : > term (no pun intended), it can't withstand it as a continuous : > load. : : Well there we go then we seem to have understanding of the basics. There : is no requirement for a table lamp flex to withstand a 30A load for any : significant duration, since there are no viable scenarios with a table : lamp that could result in such an overload situation.

Perhaps on the planet you live on John but here on planet Earth that is simply untrue! Take your nose out of the theory books John and actually get out in the real world with real people.

: >

: > No, that is what you might be trying to make it but the fact is : > the issue is still the that a 3amp appliance can (effectively) be : > protected by a 30 protective device - yes I know that even on a : : How? The largest plug fuse is 13A.

I think that is were we came in, the fact is anything of suitable dia. can be fitted into said clips. :~(((

If it didn't matter what rating of fuse was fitted, or none, not only would they stop being retailed/made, checking for correct fitment would not be part of appliance testing.

: : > radial circuit the protection device might 5x higher that it : > should be [1] but even that is better than being 10x higher! : >

: > [1] I would prefer that there be proper 5amp sockets, perhaps : > with a completely new design of socket/(moulded-on)plug, for low : > rated appliances such as table lamps, clocks and the like, which : > can be supplied via the lighting circuit(s). The British standard : > plug/socket are a bit like Socialism from the same era - "One : > size fits all". : : Get with the program Jerry. What you describe has existed for decades : and is routinely used for exactly the purpose you describe:

But not as typicial retro or new build spec whilst few if any table lamps will come fitted with such plugs, just a BS1363...

: >

: > Based on your understanding of the regulation, no doubt - if the : : No, based on my understanding cable heating in response to fault : currents in adiabatic circumstances. The only regulatory data I used : were the cable K factors (e.g. 115 for PVC insulated cable) for which : the wiring regs provide figures for different cable types based on : experimental research. I felt no need to repeat the research myself just : to post to usenet.

If that was true then there would be a "One size fits all" fuse, and indeed circuit breaker, rather than many different ratings...

: : > IEE 18th edition regs stated that 'sky-hook' circuits were their : > preferred instillation method for UK you would no doubt be basing : > your scientific analysis on those 'base points', unless you : > really are suggesting that the IEE should be asking you to : > compile the 19th edition... : : That makes little sense.

No, I don't suspect it does to the Dr Drivels of this world, the - probably because we *are* talking about the IEE regulations as it they who allow or ban certain electrical instillation practises...

Reply to
Jerry

: In the days of dial-up modems, spam filtering wasn't : what it is now, and running my own server was not : an option.

...and Haddock was £10 Kilo!

Reply to
Jerry

And as I have explained to you, they will be adequately fault protected by a 13A fuse. So what is the problem? In other EU countries they would also be adequately fault protected by a 16A circuit breaker.

They would not be adequately protected by a 32A breaker, but then that is why we have plug fuses.

You really don't understand this do you?

Explain a viable overload case for a table lamp?

You can short circuit the flex by damaging it (fault current, so not relevant since a 13A fuse will deal with that), you might be able to mangle the BC lamp connector to short when inserting a bulb ham fistedly (again, fault current so not relevant).

What are you going to do to cause an overload on the flex? Insert a 2kW incandescent bulb?

And said clips being in a US style fuse board rather than a plug, makes this harder how exactly?

The actual fuse rating is not usually that relevant as explained. It is not legal to sell appliances with unused BS1363 plugs here, and short of some dodgy IT kit bought off eBay you are highly unlikely ever to see one.

Well I have seen them used on a number of new builds (although not at the budget end of the market). If you are specifying the rewire then you are of course free to specify what you want.

Lamps bought off the shelf will come with a BS1363 plug as standard and are perfectly safe as fitted - even if you stick the wrong fuse in there.

Sorry but that is nonsense and you know it.

Why for starters? BS style plug fuses are used in more than just plugs - fused connection units, and fused spurs etc. The ratings here often may be more significant, and may also be specified for protection of the (generally fixed) appliance rather than just its cable. However these devices are less frequently installed and used by non technical users.

Well indeed, dribble seems to know less about electrical matters than even you.

To be honest Jerry I have lost track of what you are talking about. You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. By all means carry on, you will have to do you by yourself.

I get it that you don't understand circuit protection, but I am not going to persist any further in attempting to educate you.

I am not sure if you believe that (for example) US practice is superior to that used in the UK, and if so why. The numbers are certainly not there to support this. (The last figures I saw recorded 411 people died in the US from electrocutions in 2001, of which 11% were attributable to household wiring rather than appliance use. In the same year we had less than 20 deaths, of which one or two resulted from fixed wiring faults).

One fifth of the population, one twentieth of the death rate, and yet twice the voltage.

Reply to
John Rumm

results in a fault current, not an overload.

MBQ

Reply to
Man at B&Q

: > A dead short, how ever caused, : : results in a fault current, not an overload.

Whoosh....

"Man at B&Q", try actually reading, and understanding, the context to the above comment, any idiot can take a line of text out of its context and troll like you have. :~(

Reply to
Jerry

: > A dead short, how ever caused, : : results in a fault current, not an overload.

Whoosh....

"Man at B&Q", try actually reading, and understanding, the context to the above comment, any idiot can take a line of text out of its context and troll like you have. :~(

Reply to
Jerry

Gor blast boy! You still 'ere?

Reply to
The Wanderer

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