Win XP

[Mark]

If only. I have Win8 and cannot get driver updates for some hardware.

[Mark]

Same here.

Agreed. Use a VM is you need something that only runs on a particular OS.

[Ian Jackson]

In message [e-mail], Mark [e-mail] writes

I am too - so maybe that's why I still prefer XP! [BTW - I do like your signature. It sums up the situation perfectly.]

[Nick Odell]

Any reason you prefer not to get the free upgrade to Win8.1 via the Windows 8 Store tile? So far I haven't been unable to find either official or unofficial drivers for everything I use - and 8.1 still receives regular updates.

Nick

[Mark]

I already have Win 8.1.

The OS does but not all 3rd party drivers.

[Andy Burns]

Run this tool, if it is able to retrieve a product key from the BIOS flash, then you should be fine to upgrade to Win10 and have it automatically activate

[T i m]

<snip>

Whilst there are both (of course), statistically the chances are there will be more things 'missing' for 'more' people' when trying to run Linux (only, and the point) than there would be when only running Windows (only).

And I'm not just talking about generic applications or games (< even worse) but all the hardware that is 'Designed for Windows' that isn't 'Designed for Linux'. In many cases it's 'Designed for Windows' and some geek in a shed has had to reverse engineer the Windows driver to (try to) make it work with / on Linux. And that's not just my opinion:

So you are still actually running Windows and for many, they can (and do) do that without the extra complication / need of running Linux? [1]

I have enough Linux machines here and over many years to know that this 'admin-user' stands much more of a chance of getting something running on and *fully* supporting the hardware it's running on / with Windows than I ever have with Linux, and that makes perfect sense because of the 'designed for' thing.

And of course that's a catch 22 (ITRW, irrespective of what the Linux geeks will try to argue otherwise). Linux isn't 'popular' enough to get any better support from manufacturers and software developers until it get's a bigger user base and it won't get a bigger user base until there is better support. That might explain that in spite of it getting better over the years and being free (of cost, few care about any other type of free) it's still stuck at around a 5% userbase.

Now, I really am talking about the POV of yer average computer admin-user here, not some ex mainframe admin or programmer who would 'of course' enjoy the 'open' nature of much of GNU/Linux.

FWIW, I have been 'playing with computers' since I assembled my first ZX81 > BBCB, Spectrum, Atari STFM, Commodores (still got most of them <g>) and built my first IBM PCXT in the 80's and have been building, maintaining and networking PC's and devices ever since ... and even as a MCT, CNI and A+CT and 15 years as a Datacomms Tech, I *never* really came across Linux 'in the field'.

I said 'playing with computers' because I don't consider myself a 'computer specialist' and *certainly* not a computer geek. I just happened to be interested in building and making them work and inevitably, if doing that in the mainstream that's going to be Windows.

And the big difference here is that in many / most cases, you can explore Windows (systems) with the GUI, rarely needing to drop to the CLI or editing files yourself (even when you video drivers are screwed up via 'safe mode'). If course you can and many do, but they are usually not 'just' 'admin-users'.

When I wanted a home server I actually built a PC for the purpose and Linux ran on it fine. But *I* couldn't get it working as I wanted ... and in all my years experience in the field, didn't know a Linux geek and had a life that meant I didn't want to give up the time needed to 'Learn Linux' to be able to. So I gave 50 quid to MS ... bought a copy of WHS, (basically) click on 'setup' and it's been up and running and doing loads more than I could have ever got a Linux box to do ever since.

That said, I managed to get a RPi running OMV and it works as a highly confusing NAS but it only works at all because I found a walkthrough that actually worked. It works but in a limited way and I don't want to touch it for fear of breaking it (and the chances are, not be able to fix it without starting from scratch).

*Never* had any issues setting up shared space, user rights and permissions in Netware, OS/2, NT ...

I really hope Linux carries on improving and really does become a genuine option for more (ordinary) people (and not just as a Server, Web terminal or WP). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] As a Linux advocate I have offered and installed Linux for a fair few people, some as Linux only and most as dual boot with Windows. In most (so far) cases the Linux system remains unused because the first time they try to use it for anything important, it fails for them. I don't mean it fails technically, but fails because they can't do what they want to do on it ... like run iTunes or the kids playing their favourite game.

I have 3 people who run Linux as their main / only OS and for most of the time, they are happy. However, they have a very static usage model and so that's fine. If I can't help them with problems, they wouldn't know anyone else who could.

[Jethro_uk]

There are always forums where you can post and be ignored :)

[T i m]

When I was actually trying to get Linux to do stuff it didn't OOTB and posting to the Linux forums I would often get a pro-active reply but rarely did it actually help (or maybe it didn't help *me* because they often assumed a skillset or interest that didn't exist (many Linux geeks being left brainers etc)).

I would initially get the same sort of reply on the newsgroups but when they couldn't actually offer a valid reply they started with the Windows fanboi line (when I'm not a 'fan' of any 'OS').

The best example of them having to eat humble pie was when I couldn't get a wired mouse to work properly (it was too fast) but was fine when used on Windows and OSX. I was accused of making it all up of course. An understanding Linux user (a rare beast) actually connected to my PC remotely and after quite a few experiments with the mouse and some 'programming on their part, we got the mouse to work properly (via a UDEV kludge) and so they confirmed my situation to the rest of the freaks//////geeks). ;-)

Because I was playing with Linux across a whole range of hardware it was very likely I was seeing a disproportional level of issues, especially compared with those specifically buying 'Linux friendly' hardware and then just using such as a WP or web terminal.

Getting Linux working on 'most PC's' is (often) quite easy these days (if you are lucky), it's what happens next is the real (world) issue.

Like getting a video capture card to capture on the right port. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[Jethro_uk]

I first used Ubuntu in 2006 - it worked quite well. I had a dual boot machine and pottered around for a year or so.

Then I decided to move from Dapper to Fawn. At which point a really weird bug crept in. I was using a wireless mouse, and every so often the "focus" for the mouse *button* would get "stuck" in an control on screen. The mouse pointer moved, but clicking did nothing. Once this happened the only fix I could find was to restart the X server (losing all open windows). Annoyingly it wasn't the same control each time - could be a textbox, a dropdown a checkbox.

No amount of trying to get help from the Ubuntu forums worked. And every single reply ignored my carefully written description which noted that the *Windows* installation on the same machine, same hardware carried on working perfectly.

I was definitely something to do with the wireless bit, as a wired mouse worked fine. And that had to be the community advice.

To be fair it was a really obscure bug as no one else seemed to experience it. However, I was amused about 4 years ago to get an email via the forum asking if I'd ever solved it as someone else had exactly the same issue - although they said they had a wired mouse. But the "focus" was getting trapped in controls and couldn't be regained.

I'm a big Linux fan although I stop well short of fanboi. But the community really doesn't help itself at times....

[whisky-dave]

yes to run linux you do need know quite a bit about the software and have a logical mind to sort things out , the last person to go all gooey over linux was my mates new girl friend who just said look it's really cute it as a "guin" on the screen. Apparently penguin enthusiasts use the term guin for a Penguin.

But that is hardly evidence of the best OS but it may well have the cuetest logo.

Yes running linux is an achievement a bit like riding a uni-cycle great but what use does the average person have for a uni-cycle ?

I let a friend install linux on one of my macs years ago, didnlt take long and he was realyl impressed withn the speed compared to a PC of the time, mainly as my Macs had SCSI, but after he installed it and kept telling me how fast it was I asked him so what's next... He couldn't think of anyhting he could actually then do with it other than claim you can do the same on it as a Mac or PC, so I asked him to get a few of my game srunning on it and photoshop and MS office and after a few days he gave up.

Yes we use linux here on dual boot PCs, it does have a place in teaching and for IoT and standalone devices.

I guess a left brainer would find that impossible.

[voyager1space]

Most people want to surf the net, for that Linux is faster and safer. Generally, it never seems to get any slower over time unlike Windows.

Having said that, drivers can still be a pain and if you're not willing to type in command lines to get things working it may not be for you.

I work in IT and we always have a preference for Linux. Servers just keep going and are much more secure.

Vendors have a preference for Windows because it's much easier to install or support.

For home use, I'd say give it a go. I suppose the "best" operating system is the one you want to use.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Latest Mint has a 'let me analyse your hardware and suggest drivers for you' system which works.

Either a driver exists and stuff works, or no driver exists and you are f***ed . No in between 'here try using this'.

I never had to use te command line to get anythging standard working. Sure if I am compileing special code - like minidlna - then there may be a need to edit config files as root, but by and large the Mint people and other developers with Mate and Cinnamon have built GUI tools to do most if not all of the rest.

But opening a command shell and typing in a command is no worse or better than opening up regedit and typing in that.

In fact its easier because you can cut and paset into te command shell from whatever website has the solution to your problem!

Its not easier to install. It COMES PREINSTALLED.

That means neither the vendor nor the customer has to install it.

In fact Windows is HARDER to install than LinuxMint.

Speed and stability = Linux Vesatility and not having to even follow intructions because its installed already = Windows.

[Mark]

Yep. Linux doesn't suffer from "Windows Rot". However I'm not 100% sure that recent versions of Windows aren't resistent either.

Yep.

Yes.

Some do. In the industry sectors I work in both Windows and Linux are used. One sector is mostly Linux and another is mostly Windows.

Yes.

[T i m]

<snip>

In fact, it's actually little different, in most cases.

The difference comes when, even if both OS's discover all the machine hardware automagically and correctly, can you then also use all the additional hardware and software you *want*.

I can't use the OBD software I need under Linux for example.

Many video cards may be detected but don't always run as efficiently on Linux as they do on the OS they were 'Designed for'.

No problem if you are some old ex mainframe programmer dinosaur but people today ...

How *did* the Steam box get on after all ... or do we still have to build our own? Linux only got Steam 10 years after the Windows users ...

Cheers, T i m